Curious about the difference between mainstream porn and ethical porn/feminist porn? Do you even know where to find it? Who better to ask than the engaging and dynamic Sonya JF Barnett RP. It’s rare to find an ethical porn producer/director, turned intimacy coordinator, yes, we’ll talk about that, turned sex therapist!
Curious about the difference between mainstream porn and ethical porn/feminist porn? Do you even know where to find it? Who better to ask than the engaging and dynamic Sonya JF Barnett, RP. It’s rare to find an ethical porn producer/director, turned intimacy coordinator, (yes, we’ll talk about that) turned sex therapist!
Show Notes:
0:24 Playboy Magazine
02:06 Risk Aware Consensual Kink RACK
02:39 Hump Film Festival
07:05 Intimacy Coordinator IC and the Me Too Movement
02:44 Dan Savage
04:18 Feminist Porn and Ethical Porn
06:36 Erika Lust
08:19 HBO
10:34 Modesty garments
16:18 Kink Fantasy and Kink Protocols
18:27 Sasha Grey
20:37 Co-founder of Slut Walk Toronto
21:51 Viewing porn and shame
23:35 Anxiety about watching porn
24:05 Sex Therapist
27:22 Sue Johanson, Dr. Ruth Westheimer, and Sex with Sue
37:47 Produced By Katie Jensen at Vocal Frye Studios
Ethical Porn Recommendations Vetted by Sonya JF Barnett
[THEME MUSIC]
[00:00:10] Michelle: Today, we're chatting with Sonya JF Barnett, a psychotherapist and an award-winning feminist porn producer. Sonya has been a champion of healthy sexuality since she discovered her first Playboy Magazine at age 10.
[00:00:27] Sonya: I remember finding it in my father's office drawer. I was sneaking through and discovering it and thought, "oh, what is this wonderful thing?" And you know, of course, kept going back to it whenever I could.
[00:00:40] Michelle: In 2011, Sonya co-founded Slut Walk Toronto, the feminist movement combating slut shaming and victim blaming in public and private institutions. Since then, slut walks have appeared in almost 300 cities worldwide. She's also worked in intimacy coordination in film and tv.
[00:01:02] Sonya: It arose primarily out of the MeToo movement and there was so much exploitation and just bad behavior and just shitty like harassment all the way to assault that was happening in a mainstream film and tv and the actors weren't protected. They're kind of expected to drop their clothes, do the scene, shut the fuck up. That's a shitty way to put somebody in a vulnerable position.
[00:01:27] Michelle: Here's why she decided to get into the ethical porn industry.
[00:01:31] Sonya: I was seeing a lot of porn that just was not produced very well, in terms of the production value, so the sound is really shitty. There was no sound design. The venues were really bad. The lighting is really bad. I'd be so distracted by how bad it looked that I paid no attention to the actual fucking, so I just thought, oh, fuck it. If I can't find it myself, I'm going to make it myself.
[00:01:54] Michelle: Within the ethical porn industry, Sonya is an advocate for LGBTQ+ representation. And she's kink aware. She's used something called RACK, which stands for Risk Aware Consensual Kink. Basically, it helps keep BDSM scenes safe and sane while still being sensual.
[00:02:15] Sonya: Because I don't wanna present something that the cast member's gonna say, oh, "I don't really don't like that shot. Ah, blegh! I don't wanna take them out of their own movie.
[00:02:23] Michelle: But before we dive into our conversation with Sonya, I have got a super sweet giveaway for you all to celebrate the launch of season two of GETSOME. Get ready to go on a hump hunt. We're giving away two pairs of tickets to Dan Savage's 18th Annual Hump Fest on April 1st in Toronto. It's an erotic amateur film festival that promotes sexual inclusivity, positivity, and diversity.
[00:02:58] Michelle: It's also an opportunity to see yourself and your desires represented on screen in a way that mainstream porn often fails to provide. Here's how to play. We're gonna have a scavenger hunt within this episode. I'm going to be very explicit when I drop five specific keywords during our interview. Once you hear a hump hunt word of your choosing, take a screen cap of the timestamp in the episode and email me at michelle@getsome.ca.
[00:03:37] Michelle: Even better, if you want a bonus entry, follow me on Instagram and make sure you share the contest with your friends. The two lucky winners will be chosen on Monday, March 27th. Listen closely because our scavenger hunt words are inclusivity, empowering, sex positive, Dan Savage. April Fools. Good luck and here's my conversation with Sonya.
[00:04:13] Michelle: I have a question about feminist porn because I know that in recent years there's been a growing interest in that genre and people are choosing feminist porn over mainstream porn. And I wondered if you would be able to explain what makes it feminist porn and how does it differ from other types of porn?
[00:04:39] Sonya: Feminist porn kind of came out of in response to traditional mainstream porn. I usually call it like California porn, which a lot of it is shot maybe kind of in the valleys. You rent this giant house, it's all very heteronormative. It's very white, it's very Barbie. Feminist porn, also known as ethical porn, came in response to that to kind of be more body positive, queer positive, giving more autonomy to the performers rather than just kind of hiring an actor and being so demanding, which a lot of what mainstream porn does, and mainstream porn gets a bad rap for it. Some of it is quite exploitative, some of it's not. Some of it is, but that will happen of course, in any industry.
[00:05:18] Sonya: But to focus on kind of everything that mainstream porn wasn't. Things that you would not normally see. Things that are more kind of real and natural. You see the wrinkles. You see the rolls, you see various shapes. You see the mess. You hear the messy sounds. There isn't glamorous editing, although it's getting better, but not kind of like the bright light, really washed out kind of thing that kind hides all the good stuff. I went into it mostly because of the visuals. Like I have a background in fine arts, so I'm a very visual person and I watch a lot of movies for the visuals and at the time I was seeing a lot of porn that just was not produced very well, in terms of the production value, it was always, it was just about the sex, you know, most of it is just about the sex, so the sound is really shitty.
[00:06:04] Sonya: There's no sound design. The venues were really bad. The lighting is really bad. The direction was terrible. Not a lot of cuts, not a lot of editing. And it would take me right out of it. I'd be so distracted by how bad it looked that I paid no attention to the actual fucking, so I just thought, "oh, fuck it. If I can't find it myself, I'm going to make it myself."
[00:06:25] Sonya: Although I, you know, I will say it did exist, just not as easily to find as it is now. And I remember one of the first things I saw online was a short erotic film by Erika Lust. I don't even think there was any sex in it. It was just really beautifully shot.
[00:06:40] Sonya: It was an advertisement for a camper hotel, and it was all about being in a hotel room with, you know, brocade wallpaper and really rich costumes and, you know, really dark lighting and shadows. And I thought, Ooh, that's what's sexy to me. So I thought, this is what I'm after. I'm not gonna try doing it myself.
[00:06:59] Michelle: I mean, you've done quite a few things, right? You've directed, produced your own porn. You've also been an intimacy coordinator for mainstream tv, and I wondered if you could just explain what exactly an intimacy coordinator would do on mainstream TV and then. Is that also a role that is present in ethical porn?
[00:07:25] Sonya: It arose primarily out of the MeToo movement. There was so much exploitation and just bad behavior and shitty like harassment, all the way to assault that was happening in mainstream film and tv and the actors weren't protected. They're kind of expected to, you know, drop the clothes, do the scene, shut the fuck up, and you know, surrounded by a hundred crew members. Do it as many times as I'm gonna say that I'm gonna do it, if you're the director. We're just gonna get it, you know, in the can. That's a shitty way to put somebody in a vulnerable position. So intimacy coordinators rose from theater. So in theater it's actually called Intimacy Direction because it's a protected title, and then transferred from theater into television on an HBO show called The Deuce.
[00:08:13] Sonya: And I'm so sorry. I cannot remember the name of the woman that did it then, but she was essentially hired by HBO because she was approached by some of the cast who said, This isn't cool. The way that we're being shot and the Deuce was about kind of like seedy New York in the seventies and eighties. A lot of sex.
[00:08:30] Sonya: They were not feeling protected. They had an advocate. She then came on and said, look, this is what's happening. You're shooting this show. This needs to be done. Your actors need to be protected and I can help you. So from that, it started becoming quite popular. HBO then kind of mandated across all their shows that they would hire an intimacy coordinator. And at the time it still wasn't exactly a position that anybody really knew what the parameters were. And that was maybe about seven years ago. Even now, a lot of people don't understand what an IC does. Directors don't understand what they do, producers don't understand.
[00:09:06] Sonya: Some actors don't understand, cuz it's never been a position that's existed. Usually it's fallen on kind of like the whole crew, where it would be like costumes, makeup assistance. Sometimes if the director was really approachable, they would be kind of watching out if they could, and then it kind of all rolled up into this ball of an IC.
[00:09:26] Sonya: So now, ICs are brought in to kind of ensure that the shooting schedule works for the cast. All the set is what's called the closed set, so it's a very limited amount of crew that's allowed. It's really the people that are only vital to shooting that scene, so that might be like five to ten people.
[00:09:44] Sonya: Monitors are covered depending on how amicable the director is to having that IC show up. Sometimes they don't really wanna listen to an IC, and I've had that experience, which makes it very difficult. But if the director wants to work with the IC, they can be allies to each other. So the IC will then recommend, okay, the IC will go through the script, they'll find all the scenes, they'll flag them all, and then they're gonna recommend it's going to be closed in the schedule.
[00:10:13] Sonya: We're gonna tell AD who runs the set, this scene needs to be closed. Only this many crew can be shown. Will also suggest how many takes will happen because an actor only wants to do so many takes. How many setups. So, where the camera is, how many camera changes there are, and as well, we're also there suggesting what's called intimacy garments. Or modesty garments.
[00:10:35] Sonya: So you know, we're covering up nipples, we're covering up pubic hair. And that one is for modesty. And also the other reason is for, so you don't wanna have, you know, naked genitalia bouncing against each other. And we're gonna make sure that the actors are protected for that. So we check in ahead of time.
[00:10:50] Sonya: So, you know, it could be a few days or a few weeks, if you're lucky. Have a conversation with the cast members, see how comfortable they are, see what their limits are, what their boundaries are, what they wanna show, what they wanna do, what they don't, and then those boundaries are then relayed back to the director because we are the ones with the language to do that.
[00:11:08] Sonya: And then we have these conversations ongoing with the cast. You know, if you're doing it in advance by a few days, you're also checking in on the day of to see how they're doing. You're checking in as the scene is progressing throughout the day to see how they're doing. We'll make adjustments when we can.
[00:11:22] Sonya: If they say, you know what? I'm getting tired. You know what? I don't wanna do that kissing anymore, then the new adjustments will be made. Anything that an IC can do to make everything perfectly safe. Although, you know, you're never gonna guarantee 100% safety, but we do our best to ensure as much as we can.
[00:11:37] Michelle: Wow. And then I guess an IC would also be used in ethical porn.
[00:11:42] Sonya: Yeah, I've seen it more and more show up in porn the way that I saw when I started shooting my own own. I was already doing that work. I always made sure that I was working with my cast members, so whatever they wanted to shoot is what we would shoot.
[00:12:00] Sonya: I wouldn't demand, you know, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. It's what they wanna do to make sure that they have all that agency of what they wanna do, what they wanna show. Even checking in the day before, I would always make sure, it's like, make sure that you sleep well tonight. Make sure that you're well fed.
[00:12:14] Sonya: Make sure that you're hydrated. I will always have food and you know, water on set as well. We make sure that the scenes don't go on too long. We make sure that they take breaks. We make sure that the venue is warm, that they have a robe and a place to sit comfortably, and a place to chill out. So those kinds of things I was already doing.
[00:12:30] Sonya: But now I'm seeing actually the position of an IC, the isolated position of an IC show up in porn. And I'm not sure if it's happening kind of across the board in mainstream as well as feminist porn. I have seen that they're showing up, and I think it's great because you can say that you do feminist or ethical porn, but it doesn't mean that you're all automatically going to be, you know, caring for the safety of your cast.
[00:12:50] Sonya: So if there's somebody there that can do it, that maybe you don't have the time or the ability or the bandwidth to do it. Yeah, bring in an IC for sure.
[00:12:59] Michelle: While feminist porn aims to challenge some of the harmful norms and power dynamics in mainstream porn, it's not completely immune to criticism. And some argue that even feminist porn is inherently objectifying or exploitive. How do you respond to these kinds of critiques and what steps can feminist porn, ethical porn take to address them?
[00:13:33] Sonya: No industry is going to be perfect. We can say that we shoot ethical or feminist porn, but it doesn't automatically mean that it's following all the, you know, the values that you want to adhere to when you're doing that kind of thing.
[00:13:47] Sonya: There is exploitation that still happens, you know, whether it is because somebody's just ignorant and they don't know what the kind of like limitations, what the boundaries are, what the values are, or people are full on, you know, blowing past those boundaries purposefully. So, say, if you're a performer and you wanna enter feminist or ethical porn, it should still be top of your mind to do your checklists.
[00:14:12] Sonya: Check the background of the producers and the directors. See what their histories are. And now you know the internet is nothing but reviews. So you can find out, you know, has that director or that producer, do they have a history of being exploitative? Do they have a history of not listening to their cast, do they, you know, just not give a shit?
[00:14:32] Sonya: You're probably going to find somewhere along the way, a review that will indicate whether they should be working with you or not.
[00:14:39] Michelle: As someone who has directed and produced porn, I would imagine balancing sexual fantasies with messages of inclusivity.
[00:14:50] Michelle: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, it's a hump hunt word.
[00:14:55] Michelle: It can be really tricky when it comes to fantasies around humiliation and rape and objectification to name a few. How do you navigate this tension?
[00:15:12] Sonya: I take the lead from my cast and I'll have like a general idea. It's like I'm kind of envisioning this kind of set. I'm envisioning this kind of music, so it looks like a sexy music video. And I will present them to the cast and I'll say, so this is what I'm thinking of.
[00:15:25] Sonya: Where do you think that fits in with how you wanna show your sexuality? How you wanna show being together or getting off or whatnot? So there's that conversation and it's always been an amazing conversation. It's like, "I wanna show this. I don't wanna show that."
[00:15:42] Sonya: "Can we do this?"
[00:15:42] Sonya: "Can we do that?"
[00:15:43] Sonya: "Ooh, you know, I've always wanted to try this. Can we try that?"
[00:15:45] Sonya: And of course we can try that. So I take the lead from my cast and that, you know, is one of the steps to kind of avoid that exploitative nature of it. And at the same time, at the end of the production, before I even deliver the final product, I will show my cast members, this is what I've cut.
[00:16:02] Sonya: Let me know what you think. If there's anything in there that you don't wanna show, I'll cut it out because I don't wanna present something that the cast member's gonna say, oh, I really don't like that shot. Ah, blegh! I don't wanna take them out of their own movie. If they can get off from their own movie, perfect. So if they wanna show something that's like a really deep, intense kink fantasy. We'll do that. You know, we'll always make sure that it's safe, you know, using risk aware kink protocols. So make sure that it's safe. Make sure that it's all consensual, that anybody has a chance to say yes or no at any moment.
[00:16:38] Sonya: If they wanna change their mind, all right, we'll change their mind and we'll go in another direction. To a cast member. I'm not gonna say we're gonna do this, we have to do this. Suck it up. I'm never gonna say that. So if they wanna express a certain fantasy, we'll do our best.
[00:16:51] Michelle: It sounds very ding, ding, ding, sex positive. Here is a hump hunt word.
[00:16:58] Michelle: So, it sounds like how you promote sex positivity during maybe scenes where people are acting out a rape fantasy or they're being humiliated would be by, I guess, following kink protocols.
[00:17:20] Sonya: Yeah, definitely. We, you know, we follow those protocols. We make sure that the set is safe.
[00:17:24] Sonya: We make sure the actors are safe. We make sure that they have final say. I have not shot anything so intense yet that that needs to be a further conversation after the fact of the optics of a particular scene. Like I've not shot a rape fantasy, so I would probably have some kind of disclaimer or intro or outro for the short explaining what it is or having something that helps explain what is going on. And people aren't just, you know, blindly watching a rape scene. There's actually came from mainstream porn, an aspect of that, and I wish I could remember who the studio was and you know, I have to say, I don't know how actually true or authentic it was at the beginning and in the end, but they would have a kind of an opening interview with the cast members and then they have the outro interview and say, you know, okay. How was that for you? And every scene, every video had that outro. So, you know, if a cast member at the end is gonna go, you know what, I was really hurt there. I was really injured. We have that conversation we're, that's not a scene that we're gonna be presenting.
[00:18:27] Michelle: Yeah, I think I saw that in a Sasha Grey video. They talked with the people who were gonna be in the video and they talked about boundaries. And then there was even a point where I think a boundary got crossed and they talked about how it was dealt with.
[00:18:45] Michelle: And I will never forget that it was the first time that I had ever seen that kind of communication happening behind the scenes. And actually, to be quite honest, it was like a huge turn on, that communication piece. Making it safe and just as a viewer being able to sit back and relax and know that they are doing what they wanna be doing.
[00:19:07] Sonya: Yeah, exactly. And when you see that communication happen, that's mirroring more of real life than, you know, a mainstream porn film will be where it's like the edits are cut out. You're not gonna see, you know, the fake ejaculate, you're not gonna see, you know, the Viagra popped. You're not gonna see all, you know, piles of lube everywhere.
[00:19:25] Sonya: Although lube is great. You don't see those conversations, you don't see the laughter, you don't see the mess, you don't see the, you know, oh, accidental elbow to the face kind of thing. And once you see that, then you realize, oh, you know, these are just human beings just like I am. And once you know that that's a little safer for you to be able to show that in your sexual behavior and your sexuality, then it, yeah, there's more likelihood that you are gonna be turned on.
[00:19:49] Michelle: When it comes to pornography and ethical porn, what are some ways that you think that it can be used in a healthy, empowering way? And by the way, ding, ding, ding, this is one of the words for the hump hunt.
[00:20:07] Sonya: Do you mean like for an individual or for a couple instead something specific that you're looking for or?
[00:20:12] Michelle: I have some people that come in where they have a lot of guilt and shame about the fantasies that turn them on. Because maybe they would describe themselves as being a feminist, yet they're having these fantasies about rape that really turn them on. Meanwhile, they're marching in your slut walk, right? So there's a real conflict about what turns them on versus what they actually believe in and what they value in real life.
[00:20:51] Michelle: And so sometimes, I will validate, reassure, normalize, because it is quite common. If that is a fantasy that they enjoy, but they're afraid that they're gonna land on something that's not consensual, that would be one way, for example, that I would say, hey, like I can see how ethical porn can be empowering in some ways to normalize what turns them on.
[00:21:17] Sonya: Yeah, definitely. That normalization is such a vital aspect in those conversations to let them know that, yeah, there can be a disconnect. And I'd like to have conversations about media conditioning, you know, where did you get your ideas about porn? Where did you get your ideas about sex, about relationships, about, you know, any kind of erotic communication. Where did you see that? What did you see growing up? Was it modeled by your parents? Was it modeled by television? The books you're reading, the music that you're listening to, and we have these conversations about, yeah.
[00:21:48] Sonya: You know, we have been heavily conditioned to be shamed for our sex. And when you've got those messages for years and years and years, It will be very difficult. It will be very challenging for you to admit, well, you know, I kind of wanna check that porn out. I kind of wanna check that aspect of my sexuality out. But there's this shameful feeling. It's like, even if there's nobody in the house and nobody's watching, and it's just you and your laptop, there's still kind of a, you know, a wall there that you have to get through and it's really difficult.
[00:22:21] Sonya: So having those normalizing conversations, like, yeah, you know, it can be really scary. So I talk about edge surfing. So this is, which is, you know, different from edging, but just the idea that you take a feeling or an urge and you just ride it out to see how far you can go with it and sit in that discomfort before you wanna bail.
[00:22:45] Sonya: So if you're just like you're riding a wave, how long are you gonna ride that wave before you have to bail? So you have an inkling to watch a particular kind of porn? Okay? So can you sit with that thought for five minutes before you even open the laptop? Okay. So what's that five minutes gonna be like for you?
[00:22:59] Sonya: Can you open the laptop and just like type in the url? What's that gonna be like for you? And like, just see how much further you can get with that feeling until you're like in comfort. And maybe you will bail at a certain point and that's okay. And you're probably gonna bail a few times. But keep trying it and see where it takes you.
[00:23:17] Sonya: This is your fantasy. This is your sexuality. Yes, you know, you've got something sitting on your shoulder of that conditioning or a parent saying, no, that's bad, don't masturbate, kind of thing. So yes, you're gonna be carrying that with you, but this is your exploration and the memories are there, but those people aren't there with you at that moment.
[00:23:35] Sonya: So you are there in a private moment and you, that's the safest place where you can explore. But knowing full well, like those feelings of anxiety might show up, but sit with that anxiety and take note that it's there and say, okay, yeah, okay. I'm feeling anxious, but I'm gonna put that anxiety to the side.
[00:23:53] Sonya: It's still a part of me. I'm gonna put it to the side, but it's still a part of me, but I'm also gonna explore this other side cuz I know it's safe for me right now.
[00:24:02] Michelle: Did you always know that you wanted to become a sex therapist or did your experiences. Throughout your life and your career, lead you to this path?
[00:24:18] Sonya: A bit of both. I was a really sexual teen. I was very sexually curious and very sexually active, but of course shamed by my parents, which caused a lot of conflict in my household, and I never had what's commonly known as the talk by my parents. I was never taught about sex or sexuality or, you know, even, you know, reproduction and all the plumbing information. Never got that. And at the time I'm a teenager, even then, I felt like I was being shortchanged and I thought, you know what? If I ever have a kid, I am not gonna put my kids through the same thing because this is bullshit. So throughout my life I was kind of on that road of wanting to make sure to be, you know, a champion and an educator for my own kid.
[00:25:06] Sonya: It's changed now, which is really nice. But at the time you don't go to high school and you go to your guidance counselor and you say, I wanna be a sex therapist. Just didn't exist. Or even a sex educator. So for a while, for me it was how am I going to get to that stage of my life and how do I turn it into a job?
[00:25:22] Sonya: How do I turn it into like a viable thing other than being an open-minded parent? And it wasn't until I started doing, you know, feminist organizing through Slut Walk and starting the erotic arts community that I realized, oh, this can be morphed into something. I am going to kind of mold it myself, make a position for myself.
[00:25:43] Sonya: I didn't know what it exactly was going to be, but I wanted it to be in the realm of sexuality, in the realm of, you know, possibly art and, you know, activism. So, going through that, you know, I said that I have a background in art, so I, the first time I went to university, you know, right after high school, a million years ago, I went for fine arts.
[00:26:03] Sonya: And it wasn't until I was already working into the field there, was an art director at various ad agencies and some boutique art shops and stuff like that, that I realized that this was not floating my boat anymore. I wasn't making any kind of mark, I was working for advertisers. I was like I don't, I'm not gonna spend the rest of my life on this planet working for an advertiser.
[00:26:23] Sonya: The arts community that I made that developed into something a lot bigger than I thought it was gonna be. I thought it was just gonna be me. A way to draw naked people in, you know, in sexy erotic poses. I thought this is gonna be my fun little side project. But it turned into this huge thing where we would have artists coming every single week of all ages, of all types of, you know, skill level.
[00:26:43] Sonya: The models that we had were so gung-ho in wanting to express their sexuality, and either they were experienced models or somebody who just was trying out, I'm gonna try what it's gonna be like to be naked on stage. And then the conversations afterwards I would have would be so amazing. You know, I've had so many artists and models approach me and say, I would never have done that before.
[00:27:06] Sonya: I am so much more open with my sexuality, you know? Thank you so much for, you know, providing the safer space for us. And at that point I realized, oh, again, yeah, there's something here. So that was little over 10 years ago and at that time, okay, yeah, the Internet's now more developed. I can now Google how to work in the sex industry somehow, and also hats off to Sue Johanson.
[00:27:30] Sonya: You know, Sex with Sue on the radio, I would listen late at night when I was 10 years old, you know, very, very quietly under my sheet so my parents wouldn't hear at 10 o'clock. And, you know, listening to Sue Johanson talk about sex. Safe sex, you know how to do it. She did it somehow. She made a career. So a mix of all of that together. Always being kind of self-employed and trying to make my own way. It was, I already kind of figured, okay, I'm gonna make my own way anyway. This is how I'm gonna do it. So about 10 years ago I thought, okay, here's an actual track that I can follow to become certified. So I decided I'm gonna go back to school full-time, which I never thought I would do cuz I fucking hated university the first time.
[00:28:11] Sonya: And I thought, oh, well, I guess I, I better go back if I want the information. So I went to U of T for sexual diversity studies, which was a program that I absolutely loved. I didn't have to take that program in order to go to my master's in counseling psychology, but I wanted that education in sexual diversity studies.
[00:28:29] Sonya: I wanted to learn all that, and I went in thinking, you know what, if I do really poorly and I wind up a C student, cuz I'm just old and I have no retention for information, at least I'll have the experience of being in a classroom and learning as much as I can. Funny enough, I actually really enjoyed going to school. I did really well. I was that keener, old, mature student, you know, always putting my hand up in class, doing all the readings, doing all the homework, and it was amazing.
[00:28:55] Michelle: Yeah, I know. I'm so there with you. I'm so there with you on that. When I went back to do my master's in social work, it was not my first degree. I was a a bit older. I think I was in my thirties, late twenties, I can't remember totally, but I was a shitty student in the beginnings of my university career. And then it was like, I think maturity probably, and then actually learning about things that were applicable and interesting and kind of made my mind work.
[00:29:30] Sonya: Yeah, absolutely. Right. And I felt like, okay, I'm, I'm here for a particular reason, like I wanna be here. And the information was fantastic. I had amazing professors. The experience was great. And you know, U of T is a beautiful, absolutely beautiful campus. So I got like the perfect university experience and I lived very close to it so I could like ride my bike to school, which was great. And from there, I then had to do my master's. So I did my counseling psychology, master's of arts in counseling psychology in order to become that certified therapist. And because I have a background in sexuality and that's where I wanted to go, and that's the information that is kind of my wheelhouse and where I'm more comfortable about, okay, I'm gonna be a registered psychotherapist with a focus on sex. So this is kind of where I am now. And you know, as you know, as part of BESTCO, which I still have to apply to, that's my next major administrative step.
[00:30:23] Michelle: BESTCO is the Board of Examiners in Sex Therapy and Counseling in Ontario, for those of you that were interested in knowing about that, and I'm so excited for you to come on board. You'll be such an amazing addition to the certified sex therapists in Canada actually like, so that'll be great. Now we have number four hump hunt word, which is Dan Savage. So the Dan Savage Annual Hump Film Festival showcases a variety of amateur porn films in different genres, and when it comes to voting for a hump winner. Because I'm gonna be going there with one of my very good friends, Lisa Pelletier , who was also a certified sex therapist, and we actually together, I think it was a couple years ago, we watched Hump. It was during Covid. It was online at the time, and we had such a great time like talking about the different films that have been nominated. And so now we're going live to this show. On April 1st and ding, ding, ding, there's another hump hunt word here. It's April Fools. So I guess I was wondering, when we go to this festival, do people generally make their decision on who should win? Or people basing it on their choice of like, what they're aroused by in terms of genre or is it quality? What are people looking for when they are voting for a winner?
[00:32:07] Sonya: I found it's actually quite a variety and if I remember correctly, there are different categories. Cuz I've won a couple, I think I was a runner up one year and then I won and I think the title was, "Film that most made you wanna fuck." So there are, you know, different categories of like how erotic it is or you know, what the visuals are or how funny it was cuz there's a lot, there's actually, uh, quite a few funny ones that really don't have a lot of sex in them at all. But I guess they're, you know, sex or porn adjacent kind of thing, or sexy in a way. It's pretty subjective what sexy is. And you will definitely see it in the catalog of films that are there. But it's a hoot.
[00:32:47] Michelle: Like what is it gonna be like? Are we just all sitting in a room? And funny enough, when Carlyle Jansen was doing the feminist porn awards, she was having like a preview of different kinds of feminist porn. And I was sitting there with maybe about 25 people and we're all watching porn together. And I was like, there is something so awesome about this, and a little bit funny and weird. What can we expect to experience while we're there?
[00:33:13] Sonya: You know, it's kind of funny that you say that, that it's funny and weird because, you know, we used to have massive porn theaters, right? So people would go to a full giant theater. Like a typical movie theater and sit and watch, you know, behind the green door kind of thing. You know, it's like, you know, the Deuce, the area in New York that I was talking about earlier in the seventies and eighties, we had these giant porn theaters that people would go and sit in an audience in the dark with a whole bunch of people. And whether it was a regular theater or you know, quote unquote porn theater, which we had a few of those in Toronto as well. That was kind of how a lot of people would see porn. Or there were like smaller, smaller little venues where you're, like you said, you know, I would say 25 people in, you know, folding chairs they'll put up in front of a sheet and you watch all together. So it's not like you're going to sit there in the dark and you know, whip your dick out kind of thing. But you are there with a whole bunch of people and the expectation is that you're gonna be aroused in some way. That's the whole point that you're there. That's the whole point of the films that were made.
[00:34:15] Michelle: So it's okay to like allow yourself to feel the arousal, but yeah, you don't whip your dick out. You don't like stick your hand down your pants. Like there's rules here.
[00:34:25] Sonya: Yes, there are rules and I don't know how, how much it's changed since, but when Dan Savage first introduced Hump Fest, it was under the auspice that these are films that you could produce and show to a public audience, and it would only be that audience. It would just be that audience. And at the end, all the films are destroyed. Like they are not shown anywhere else. So you had the safety to either present what you shot, especially if you are in it. And it was only to those people. And then they used to have like a, I think like the winners or the losers or something like that.
[00:35:03] Sonya: The films would be actually be ceremonially destroyed with like a chainsaw kind of thing. I don't think they do that anymore. I don't think they do the ceremonial destroying but they do have those rules that phones are not allowed. So the, you know, the ushers will be going up and down to make sure that you are not recording the films because you wanted to try again, like you wanna try and make it as safe space as possible.
[00:35:25] Sonya: Especially if a lot of the films are first time filmmakers, or first, first time performers and them, you know, they're, they're just dipping their toe in porn. Some are more experienced, but some aren't. So yes, there are rules. There's decorum.
[00:35:38] Michelle: I'm so excited. Sonya, thank you so much for being my guest today. You have been so much fun to talk to and just such a great combination of somebody who has so much knowledge around sex and sexuality in so many different ways, and being able to also talk about this exciting Hump Festival that I'm gonna be going to and that we're giving away free tickets to. I just wanted to say thank you. I really appreciate you being here.
[00:36:14] Sonya: Oh, thank you Michelle so much. This was such a great conversation and you know, your a lovely host. I love that you're doing this show. It's amazing. And we need more people like you
[00:36:22] Michelle: and you.
[00:36:23] Sonya: Yeah, thanks. I can toot my own horn. Yes, yes. I'm fabulous. But you know, we do need these types of conversations from either the formal and you know, the professional questions to kind of the more casual stuff. And I'm grateful that you asked me about, you know, how I became one, because there's no like real specific tract yet that it's people you know, can get that kind of curiosity and see how other people are doing it because people like us are needed.
[00:36:49] Michelle: And as you said, like we stand on the shoulders of giants, right?
[00:36:52] Michelle: Like for me it was Sue Johanson and Ruth Westheimer, right? And hopefully one day we'll set the stage where people will be able to stand on our shoulders and do work and realize that you can actually have a career in this area and a very important career because it can really change people's lives. Right? When you get them to challenge some of their ideas about sex and sexuality.
[00:37:19] Sonya: Yeah. You know, it's funny when people ask me what I do, when I meet new people and I say, oh, a sex therapist, they say, oh really? Wow. We need more people like you. Can I have your number? So it's like, yes, we are needed. Because of that shame that's out there because of everything that's kind of, we're told to lock everything away. We need to offer those spaces for people to explore and be curious. Thanks so much, Michelle. I really appreciate you.
[00:37:47] Michelle: That was my conversation with Sonya JF Barnett. This show is produced by Katie Jensen at Vocal Fry Studios. If you have show ideas or even a confession that you want me to answer in an episode, email me at michelle@getsome.ca, and don't forget to follow me on Instagram at @getsome_podcast. You'll get great ideas around sex and sexuality as well as to see what's happening between episodes. Thank you for listening.