Guess what? Even 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' missed the mark on Orthodox Jewish sex! I've got Shely Esses on the show today—a Sex Therapist from Toronto, Canada. With her expertise in Jewish healing, she's here to bust myths and shine a light on the cultural nuances surrounding intimacy within the Orthodox Jewish community. Let's shtup in!
Guess what? Even 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' missed the mark on Orthodox Jewish sex! I've got Shely Esses on the show today—a Sex Therapist from Toronto, Canada. With her expertise in Jewish healing, she's here to bust myths and shine a light on the cultural nuances surrounding intimacy within the Orthodox Jewish community. Let's shtup in!
Show Notes
[00:00:00] Shely explains Judaism's sex-positive perspective: Emphasis on marital context for sexual activity.
[00:00:38] Jewish Myths Debunked: The "sheet with a hole" myth from Curb Your Enthusiasm and its origins linked to tzitzit - a traditional Jewish garment.
[00:01:50] Orthodox Jewish Marital Practices: Emphasizes on sexual satisfaction in marital agreements, the importance of physical intimacy, and the varying levels of observance and practice.
[00:03:26] Relationship with Local Orthodox Rabbis: Insights into personal connections, guidance, and the role of Yoetzet – female advisors.
[00:03:54] Mikveh and its Significance: Explores the role of menstrual blood in religious purity, and emphasizes on self-care, rejuvenation, and marital intimacy.
[00:07:21] Addressing Sexual Challenges: Approaches to tackle challenges like low desire and painful penetration, the importance of communication, techniques like dilator work, Sensate Focus, and the role of body image and sexual self-esteem.
[00:10:49] Premarital Counseling in the Jewish Community: Combines religious teachings with modern sexual health approaches while emphasizing pleasure and intimacy.
[00:12:33] Sexuality & Jewish Traditions: Highlights the significance of Shabbat in marital intimacy and the role of traditions in guiding sexual practices.
[00:13:27] Birth Control & Hasidic Community: Navigates the balance between religious beliefs and personal choices, and highlights the importance of rabbinical guidance and personal well-being.
[00:14:54] Addressing apprehensions around first-time intercourse.
[00:15:19] Shely's resources and methods:
[00:15:51] Cultural insights: The significance of post-marriage intercourse in the Jewish tradition.
[00:16:12] The long-term approach to intimacy: Insights on grounding oneself before intimacy, differentiating between calmness and boredom, and advocating for meditation before sex.
[00:17:03] Michelle's input: Points out the resistance against integrating mindfulness and introduces Lori Brotto's workbook.
[00:17:24] Shely on dealing with trauma: Introduces the ventral vagal anchor technique as well as planning sex.
[00:17:48] Scheduled vs. spontaneous intimacy: Discusses the concept of Mikvah Night and addresses misconceptions about spontaneity in intimacy.
[00:18:16] Embracing terminology with confidence: Encourages understanding and confidently using terms related to sexual health and anatomy.
[00:18:49] Michelle's question on addressing shame: Shely emphasizes seeking sex therapy, particularly from professionals familiar with Jewish traditions.
[00:19:25] Resources: Dive into sex-positive aspects of Judaism with recommended readings like works by Dr. Ruth and The Kosher Kama Sutra by Shmuley Boteach.
[00:19:52] Closing remarks: Expresses gratitude to Shely for her invaluable insights and contributions.
Production Credits: katie@vocalfrystudios
About Shely:
Shely Esses RP (Qualifying) holds a marriage and family therapy (MFT) graduate degree from Iona University and currently resides in Toronto, Canada.
Shely is guided by a systemic lens, a way of seeing you as an individual with interpersonal and wider-world impacts on your life. She is passionate about helping people feel comfortable in their own skin. She is delighted to help individuals, couples, and families find balance and healing in their lives.
She is knowledgeable about the Orthodox community, ensuring clients feel understood halachically while discussing mental and physical health. She is also skilled at helping clients with pre-and post-marriage halachot.
Shely focuses on helping clients experiencing discomfort or anxiety about their sexual self-esteem, self-worth, and relationships. She is particularly interested in working with often overlooked or underserved communities, such as those in conservative religious minority groups and people in alternative relationships. Shely is skilled at weaving together practical and holistic techniques to promote nervous system regulation & deep mindfulness.
Resources For Professionals:
1) Heavenly Sex: sexuality and the Jewish Tradition Dr Ruth & Jonathan Mark
2) The kosher Sutra: Eight Sacred Secrets for Reigniting Desire and Restoring Passion for Life by Rabbi Shmuleyu Boteach
3) Kabbalah and Sex Magic By Marla Segol
Podcast: Intimate Judaism with Talli Rosenbaum and Rabbi Scott Kahn
Fun reads: I will watch you: four short tales of Jewish love and Lust by Shoshana Pearl
Classes Taught by Shely: 3 CEs available! https://modernsextherapyinstitutes.com/product/sex-intimacy-and-connection-through-the-lens-of-the-sefirot-10-emanations-from-jewish-mysticism-3-ces-2023/
[00:00:00] Shely: Judaism is sex positive, very sex positive. There's so much beautiful text about sexuality, using your body, it's divine. Sex is not just for having babies, it's for pleasure. However, not before you're married is going to be a major theme in most of these communities.
[00:00:38] MIchelle: I was watching Curb Your Enthusiasm and Larry David was going on a date. She was Hasidic and Larry was told that he would have to have a sheet with a hole in it because he was told that that's how Hasidic Jewish people have sex. Is this true or is this a myth? Like, where does this come from?
[00:01:02] Shely: It's actually a very funny story, to be completely honest. So if anybody is familiar with the garb of a Jewish observant person, there's something called the tzitzit. Under a shirt, you' re gonna have, it's like an undershirt that doesn't have sides. There's a front and a back that has four strings. Only men wear it. Putting it on is a reminder that you're connecting to God.
[00:01:27] So when women in the Early 1900s, 1800s were doing laundry. They were putting up these tzitzit that have a big hole for their head. And it's not a shirt, it's missing the flaps in between their arms. So it looks like a sheet with a huge hole in it. And that is actually how that myth started. It was just laundry of doing, the, tzitzit.
[00:01:50] There are actually rules that some people follow on how to have sex. For instance, The dark is preferred, different times of day preferable, but body to body contact is certainly the best way to go for it. Another cool part of this all is in the actual written tuba, which is when you get married, you write an agreement.
[00:02:13] It does say that if a woman is not sexually satisfied, that is grounds for divorce. It is written there. People don't like pull on that so much, but it is there. There's so much beautiful text about sexuality, using your body, it's divine, sex is not just for having babies, it's for pleasure, however, not before you're married.
[00:02:37] is going to be a major theme in most of these communities. Not all. So even within the observant Jewish community, there is totally a spectrum where you have some people who are super modern that will adhere to some of the marital purity laws, but they're wearing pants, they're not going to wear any hair coverings.
[00:02:58] You wouldn't know. that they are. There's literally so many different sects and communities, but what keeps it all together is Halakha and the guidelines, the rule book that the observant Jewish people are going by. So that's the same, but Of course, there's multiple opinions, and then you have your own local Orthodox rabbi they connect to so that they can answer your questions.
[00:03:26] There's a lot of conversation between an observant Jewish person and their local Orthodox rabbi, someone they trust. I actually... I have a woman, it's called a Yoetzet. There are women who will ask a man, the rabbi, about period blood coloring based on the mikveh, which is a whole other beast. Women who observe family purity laws will go to the mikveh, which is a water from a pure source.
[00:03:54] Now it's like super bougie, it's like going to a spa, it's like heated. But in order to get cleared, to go to the mikveh, you need to have no blood, and then from when you have no blood... You are supposed to count seven clean days.
[00:04:12] MIchelle: Why would the menstrual blood keep you from going into the mikvah?
[00:04:20] Shely: That's actually a great point. I'm excited to talk about it because you're not wrong. There are absolutely women who are taking this idea of nida, which is when you're bleeding, the time where you have your period and then the clean days. They're saying, oh, well, I'm impure. I'm dirty. And they're like, Saying negative things where it's not about that.
[00:04:37] It's more about the red tent mentality. What is red tent? So in ancient times The women would all sink together. It was actually so cool. I wish I could sink with my sisters. You know, and they would all just bleed together in a tent. And there's now a group of women who now have a program called The Red Tent that are actually saying, [00:05:00] Let's return back to those ways.
[00:05:01] Let's, um, allow ourselves to actually rest and rejuvenate ourselves and have a four or five days where we are secluded from the world and Just be in our little red tent bubble because menstrual blood is not You're impure. It does not mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you're gross. It's more about the red tent mentality that takes your time to take care of yourself.
[00:05:34] The point of all of this is to strengthen sexual marital relationships. There has been enough significant research that says to a couple that obliges by this cycle of off on We're not having sex for 12 to 14 days depends how long and then then they are it's actually a mitzvah. It's a commandment to have sex.
[00:06:05] Like when you come home from after dipping in the water, if you feel good and it's consensual and all that wonderful jazz, y'all should have some fun sex. Have a date night, hire the babysitter, take the wine out. It's very special. Oh wait, so is the mitzvah every month? Once a month. Oh, yeah, so when you return home from this like mikvah night, it's supposed to be sexy time as long as everyone's feeling good. It's not something that should be forced upon.
[00:06:30] That's a whole separate conversation and then hopefully hopefully people have regular cycles between 25 to you know, 28 30 days so then like you have two weeks where You're really horny. You're really, like, looking to get with your person, with your spouse. And so the research is saying that in Orthodox Jewish couples, the sex life actually goes up in years married, where typically you see a downfall in a more secular marriage, where the sex life is going down.
[00:07:06] Having that on-off period, Is actually really important and then you're setting yourself up for hopefully two weeks of awesome play.
[00:07:21] MIchelle: What if though, the awesome play isn't happening? What if you are struggling with low desire or maybe they're struggling with pain during penetration? How do you support them?
[00:07:38] Shely: The first thing I do is you have to rule out something like a medical. diagnosis. So like you go to the doctor, a pelvic floor physical therapist, and then once we kind of confirm that it's most likely psychological, the work of dilators will help. Just basically these like, little cute, you can get them in different colors, different sizes, and like you start with the smallest one, and you just.
[00:08:02] See what it's like to put it in then you can start like doing pelvic floor bloom breathing Just pelvic floor breathing and seeing how it feels to have it inside and then once we kind of move through the dilator work I really love Sensate Focus. It's a Johnson Johnson practice. The whole long term goal of Sensate Focus is to get people to have successful sexual encounters, but in order to get there initially Sex is taken off the table so that we can slowly work our way up.
[00:08:35] So often people are like, Really? You want us to take sex off the table? I'm like, Is sex on the table? Yeah, exactly. Are you liking what you're doing right now? And that's also a really beautiful way to also address that when penetration is viewed as 1 plus 1 equals penetration, or there's a calculation and that's all you're doing, it's like a to do, you're missing out on the art of arousal, erogenous zones.
[00:09:05] I have people. Who will come to me and they're like, we don't have sex, if they've had sex, it's like once or twice, super painful, not enjoyable, not good. And the whole long term goal of Sensei Focus is to get people to have successful sexual encounters, all human beings, who are like, living in this modern world, going through life.
[00:09:30] Tend to have body image issues, which absolutely is related to low libido, low sexual self esteem. I really jump into body image stuff right away. I do a lot of somatic body scans, really like narrative work on how they view their body. That, like the internal organs. I love the internal organs. Can we talk about the internal organs and how your body functions?
[00:09:57] That's a big part. Just body image. And then if we're going to talk about sexual pain, we have to educate as many people as possible. Pain is not normal. It will happen sometimes. Let's say after pregnancy or your first time. Yeah, I also like to talk about how sometimes uteruses will tilt a certain direction.
[00:10:22] Sometimes penises will tilt. If you have a woman with a slightly tilted left like uterus of the left and a penis owner who has a penis that slightly tilts, you have to figure it out. Yes. So until you figure it out, yes. , it'll just kind of hurt. Yes. But you have to be able to talk about it. You have to be able to talk about it.
[00:10:49] MIchelle: I know that you had said that this is something that you would really like to talk about, and it was about premarital counseling, right? What would that look like for people who are coming into you who maybe they are. Orthodox Jewish and have more traditional belief systems. What are some important pieces that you provide them with that will help them move towards their sexual relationship where the focus is pleasure?
Shely: [00:11:23] So depending on the couple, I would probably honestly whip out some sources that support how sex positive Judaism is just like I actually printed it out because the Song of Songs is such a sexual, sensual piece of literature. One of the sexiest ballads probably ever written. Like this is just an example.
[00:11:48] Behold my beloved, here he comes. He is leaping over the mountains, bounding through hills. He's like a Giselle, a young stag. And he calls to me. Arise my darling, my perfect one. Come away with me. There's a lot of references to like, Breasts and the body in, in Jewish literature, a lot of metaphors. So I would just like, I would use their language. That's across the board. You have to use the language of who's coming to you.
[00:12:33] MIchelle: On Shabbat, which is what you would celebrate on Friday night, I was told that that was also an opportunity for people to have sex. Is that true?
[00:12:51] Shely: Correct. It is a mitzvah to have sex Friday night. Also, don't forget, we say kiddush where we drink the wine on Shabbat.
[00:12:42] So like, we're drinking a little bit of wine. We don't have no phones or TVs. What else are we gonna do? Read a book or have sex.
[00:13:00] MIchelle: How do you work with somebody who, let's say, they're Hasidic, and there's a belief that they should not be taking birth control, and they are getting to a point now where they just really don't want to have any more kids. How do you work with somebody, support somebody, who is feeling a bit conflicted?
[00:13:27] Shely: That's a great question. First off the bat, I don't think I would be accepted in the Hasidic community if they were coming to me because they were specifically looking for someone outside of the community that's still Jewish. Okay. People who are Hasidic would more likely either search somebody who does that kind of sex therapy within their community or they come to you because they don't want to talk to anybody in the community.
[00:13:52] Yes, and I have had good conversations with ascetic women and I still have a good answer. So there's rabbinic. councils and rabbinic opinions that say if there's a physical health absolutely no questions asked the mother's health comes first Number two if there's mental health that's becoming more and more accepted that mental health is the same As physical health there's so much rabbinical Guidance that says, take it.
[00:14:23] I would say, don't be a martyr. You have a lot of halachic, super orthodox rabbis saying, if you feel like there's going to be something wrong, like you're not gonna be able to handle it. And you're not going to be a good mother to your other five children. Don't be a martyr. Cause maybe you'll feel better in three years or two years and take a break.
[00:14:45] Like see what that does. That break actually might get you to your goal in one piece. In your premarital counseling,
[00:14:54] MIchelle: is there something helpful that you are able to say to your clients in preparation for what it may feel like to have intercourse for the first time? Or how they can, like, make it less of a huge leap from, like, not doing anything to having intercourse?
Shely:[00:15:19] Well, yes, OMGYES, is a fantastic site. They have really beautiful content. So they actually explain what an orgasm feels like. And I like, it's like, like the way they use the idea of waves coming in the tide. So what I will talk about to anybody who will listen. is also talking about the nervous system. How can we use the nervous system as a tool to be calm, feeling safe, that will allow ourselves to just open up literally too.
[00:15:51] Yes, it is a mitzvah to have sex. As soon as you can after you get married, the first night is ideal, but as soon as you can, that is what makes someone officially, totally married. There's that. So let's say some people just want to get that out of the way, fine. Like, your penis went inside my vagina, we're good.
[00:16:12] But now let's talk about the rest of your lives. Let's talk about how to ground yourselves before. I think it's so important. When I say calm, safe, that does not mean boring. That doesn't mean it's not wild. Maybe being grounded and calm will allow you to become wild and fun. The pre-work. I'm telling people now, as loud as I possibly can, and with the clients, everyone. Meditate before sex. So much resistance
.[00:17:03] MIchelle: I know there's so much resistance and all of the research, like, hard, hard research. Like Lori Brottos, she has a workbook all about her study and how mindfulness connects the mind to the body so that they're speaking to each other.
[00:17:24] Shely: If there really is, like, any type of trauma, real or imagined, and someone is going into fight or flight, I will help them with ventral vagal anchor, just anchor, how do I get them to get into a, I'm here in the moment.
[00:17:17] The second best piece of advice is planning sex is sexy. It's all cool. It's not, you know, exactly what your sex is going to look like, because that should be, you know, switched up here and there. It's the actual like setting a time where the both of you are like. I dig you, you dig me, we want sex to be a part of our romantic relationship, let's make a time for this, because our lives are pretty crazy
[00:17:48] MIchelle: and it's usually the first thing that tends to fall off.
[00:17:49] Shely: Exactly. Even though Mikvah Night, which we have that works for us, there is that plan there. But then for the rest of the two weeks, I often hear, well, why can't they read my mind? Why isn't it spontaneous? It's okay to plan your sex, leave room for spontaneous sex we like. That's fun too. Communicate. And sometimes I do, though, need to go back to biology of just like, what do you do?
[00:18:16] Like, or maybe you don't know yet, but like, let's practice the words that you might want to know. Taurus, Libia, Ball, just say them. Say them with confidence. Cause I mean, honestly, when I started as a sex therapist, I would smile when I said “vulva”. And now I don't. It's not funny. Like it's your body part.
[00:18:49] MIchelle: Shely, if there are people out there that are part of the Jewish community and really struggling with shame. related to sex or sexuality. What is their first step? Sex therapy is the way to go. Ideally, honestly, like. Someone who speaks their language, who is familiar with the sources, as I said, I would say I probably get the most success because I'm using their code of law.
[00:19:25] Any sex therapist who is potentially going to see a Jewish client and they want to keep them and do the best is to become familiar with the sex positive aspects of Judaism. There's tons of books. Dr. Ruth has a book. There's the Kosher Kama Sutra by Shmuley Boteach. There's a lot of resources that will give deep insight into Orthodox Jewish sex positive teachings.
[00:19:52] Shely, thank you so much for being here. This is like such a fun conversation. Thank you for doing the work that you do.
Shely: Thank you for having me.