Surrogate Partner Therapy (SPT), also sometimes referred to as sexual surrogacy, was first introduced by sex researchers, Masters and Johnson. They introduced the concept of sexual surrogacy to support un-partnered individuals to work towards sexual goals with another person in a controlled and supportive environment. A Certified Sex Therapist trained in SPT has the ability to refer a client to a partner surrogate when the sexual goals of the talk therapy have been met and the client wants to test out the new skills with another person to build sexual confidence in a structured and supportive environment. Structured goals such as learning to date, hug, kiss, be naked, learning to touch and be touched in pleasurable ways (that may or may not include penetration/intercourse) are decided between the sex therapist, the client and the surrogate. Alon Goshen is a surrogate in the second largest SPT clinic in the world. He has a Masters Degree in Psychology, is trained in massage therapy and tantric sex, and is a sensual couples Bachata dance instructor. Alon also owns a private clinic in Israel where he helps women learn the skills to achieve high levels of sexual pleasure for themselves, or to share with others. Where to find Alon: https://alongoshen.co.il/ IPSA (International Professional Surrogates Association) https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/ Recommended Book: https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Least-Surrogate-Partners-Intimacy/dp/0692288597/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=f7d573bf-db4f-4b19-9f34-838eebc285bc Guest Opinion Disclaimer: All opinions expressed by podcast guests / participants are solely their current opinions and do not reflect the opinions of GETSOME Inc. or affiliates or the companies with which the podcast guests / participants are affiliated, and may have been previously disseminated by them. The guests / participants opinions are based upon information they consider reliable, but neither GETSOME Inc. nor its affiliates, nor the companies with which such guests / participants are affiliated, warrant its completeness or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such.
Surrogate Partner Therapy (SPT), also sometimes referred to as sexual surrogacy, was first introduced by sex researchers, Masters and Johnson. They introduced the concept of sexual surrogacy to support un-partnered individuals to work towards sexual goals with another person in a controlled and supportive environment.
A Certified Sex Therapist trained in SPT has the ability to refer a client to a partner surrogate when the sexual goals of the talk therapy have been met and the client wants to test out the new skills with another person to build sexual confidence in a structured and supportive environment. Structured goals such as learning to date, hug, kiss, be naked, learning to touch and be touched in pleasurable ways (that may or may not include penetration/intercourse) are decided between the sex therapist, the client and the surrogate.
Alon Goshen is a surrogate in the second largest SPT clinic in the world. He has a Masters Degree in Psychology, is trained in massage therapy and tantric sex, and is a sensual couples Bachata dance instructor. Alon also owns a private clinic in Israel where he helps women learn the skills to achieve high levels of sexual pleasure for themselves, or to share with others.
Where to find Alon:
IPSA (International Professional Surrogates Association)
https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/
Recommended Book:
Guest Opinion Disclaimer: All opinions expressed by podcast guests / participants are solely their current opinions and do not reflect the opinions of GETSOME Inc. or affiliates or the companies with which the podcast guests / participants are affiliated, and may have been previously disseminated by them. The guests / participants opinions are based upon information they consider reliable, but neither GETSOME Inc. nor its affiliates, nor the companies with which such guests / participants are affiliated, warrant its completeness or accuracy, and it should not be relied upon as such.
[00:00:00] [Theme music]
[00:00:18] Michelle: I think you're going to find today's guest really interesting. I've always been curious about surrogate partner therapy. I'll refer to it as SPT. And for those of you out there where this doesn't sound familiar, you may have heard the term sexual surrogacy before. And maybe you've even seen the movie with Helen Hunt called The Sessions.
[00:00:45] Michelle: It was about a man in an iron lung who had never experienced a sexual connection with somebody and ended up by hiring a professional sexual surrogate with the help of his therapist and with the help of his priest. In the non-movie world, surrogate partner therapy is a therapeutic relationship between three people.
[00:01:14] Michelle: A certified sex therapist who does the talk therapy, the client, and a trained partner surrogate. To clarify the distinction between a partner surrogate and a sex worker is that sex work is defined as the act of sex for money. And often this occurs in a single interaction, but sometimes it can be an ongoing relationship.
[00:01:42] Michelle: It's just that the difference is that a sex worker doesn't require training and doesn't need to adhere to the ethical guidelines of a clinic or an association or work in partnership with a sex therapist. A sexual surrogate does get paid for their work. But the difference is that a partner surrogate is brought in to the therapeutic treatment plan.
[00:02:15] Michelle: And sexual interactions between the client and the surrogate often do occur at some point in the process, but it's not the focus. And between 80 and 90% of the work is spent on things like building social skills, anxiety reduction, overcoming fears, maybe some sex education.
[00:02:42] Michelle: Interestingly, Israel has the second largest sex therapy clinic in the world behind the U.S. that offers SPT. How might have Israel entered this race, you ask? We can thank Dr. Ronit Aloni for advocating for SPT from her training in the U.S. while completing her Ph.D. in sexual rehabilitation.
[00:03:09] Michelle: Ronit gained the approval of leading rabbis in Israel and has won backing from the Israeli authorities to fund the sexual rehabilitation treatment for injured soldiers. In Canada, we don't currently have a program that trains sexual surrogates, which makes the use of this model really risky, really challenging because the legalities are highly complex.
[00:03:40] Michelle: And although not illegal per se, like sex work, it is not really legal. So today, I'm speaking with Alon Goshen, who is one of the trained surrogates who works in Ronit's clinic in Israel. In addition to being a surrogate partner, Alon has a master's degree in psychology, degree in massage therapy, teaches tantric massage, and is also a teacher of a sensual couples dance called bachata.
[00:04:13] Michelle: Without further ado, Alon Goshen, I'm not sure at this point how many thousands of people you've worked with. I think the last one I clocked you at was 2,000?
[00:04:27] Alon Goshen: No. So far, only in the clinic, one-on-one, I've worked with 3,500 women so far.
[00:04:36] Michelle: Wow. And is this specifically women that you work with?
[00:04:42] Alon Goshen: Well, not specifically, but usually women and others that come to me. In my clinic, in the surrogate, I work with both genders.
[00:04:53] Michelle: Okay. Got it. Tell me a little bit about how you ended up in this role. My understanding, and this is why I thought it was so interesting to talk to somebody in Israel, was I was aware that you are able, as a sex therapist, you are able to work in partnership with a surrogate and the client. And there's a framework that you use to work together.
[00:05:24] Michelle: And we're allowed in Canada, as a registered psychotherapist, we have the ability to work with a surrogate, but they have to be a trained surrogate. And the problem with that is that we don't have a training program here in Canada, and that any trained surrogates have to come out of the States. And so it's very, very rare that they end up in Toronto. So we don't have experience in that framework. How did you end up in the role as a surrogate?
[00:05:59] Alon Goshen: Well, from a young age, I grew up in a house, in a home that was sex positive. We always talked openly about sex, and everything was very open-minded. So when I grew up, I used to always talk about sex, and study about it, and learn about it. And as the years went by, I started looking for women that had problems with their sexuality.
[00:06:33] Alon Goshen: And when I heard that they have a problem like that, usually I initiated some sort of, I courted them.
[00:06:41] Michelle: You were like, I can help you.
[00:06:43] Alon Goshen: Well, I didn't tell them that, but I knew that I could help them. I just flirted with them. So we ended up in bed, and then I helped them without them even knowing that that's what I was doing. And there was one of my lady friends. She knew about what I do. And one day she invited me to her house on her birthday. And it turns out that another friend of hers has also a birthday.
[00:07:16] Alon Goshen: So the three of us celebrated both of their birthdays. And then all of a sudden, my lady friend just went up and said, oh, I'm so tired. I'm going to go to sleep, and I'm going to leave you two alone. So one thing led to another, and me and her friend had sex that night.
[00:07:35] Michelle: And it was almost like your birthday party, too.
[00:07:38] Alon Goshen: Yeah. It's like a present for me as well. And in the morning, my friend came up to me and asked me, how was the sex? And I was, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to do and tell. So she said, you better not ruin my birthday surprise, my birthday gift. And I asked, what? And she said, yeah, you were my birthday gift to my friend. She was 28 years old, and she was still a virgin. And you were my present to her that she would lose her virginity.
[00:08:12] Alon Goshen: And I was, what? Why didn't you tell me that? So I went to her friend, and I asked, is that true? And she said, yeah. You just saved me 50,000 shekels in surrogate treatment. And I was, what's a surrogate? What is that? And she said, oh, you don't know. This is exactly what you helped me do. So you should check it out.
[00:08:38] Michelle: Oh, so during that time, you weren't yet trained as a surrogate partner. You simply enjoyed providing women who had some apprehension or fear about being sexual and provided them with a pleasurable sexual experience. Just going back a second, what do you think contributed to your parents being so open about sex?
[00:09:14] Alon Goshen: To be honest, I don't know, because that did not come from their parents. I think that they had just an open mentality. Unlike their parents, it came from Russia. It was like a strict, very closed-minded way of thinking. So maybe they grew up saying that they don't want to be closed-minded like their parents. So I don't know.
[00:09:40] Michelle: Yeah. And then you decide, oh, I'm actually pretty good at this. And I wonder if there's a way I can make a career or make money. Is that where you went from there?
[00:09:58] Alon Goshen: It was never about the money because I just thought, oh, this is amazing. I can find a clinic that will bring me those cases instead of me needing to go and find them out. So I hope Ronit will not hear that. But even if you say surrogates no longer receive money, I will still keep on doing that because I've never done that for the money.
[00:10:27] Michelle: And you work with Ronit in her practice?
[00:10:30] Alon Goshen: Yeah, in her clinic.
[00:10:31] Michelle: In her clinic?
[00:10:33] Alon Goshen: The second largest surrogate clinic in the world, after the U.S.
[00:10:38] Michelle: That is amazing, which is so interesting because when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, you had told me that Israel was just starting to provide sex education in schools. Is that correct?
[00:10:58] Alon Goshen: Yeah, like a must, a must-have sex curriculum in schools. Yeah. It's a little bit of a problem because all of our education ministers were religious types of people. And they, well, they don't really like to push forward sexual education stuff.
[00:11:22] Michelle: Why do you think that is?
[00:11:24] Alon Goshen: The religion has a lot of limitations on sex. So it's not like a very open-minded about sex. A lot of things are forbidden or not allowed.
[00:11:37] Michelle: Would there be a couple of aspects of sex and sexuality that aren't allowed?
[00:11:42] Alon Goshen: Well, there is the matter of homosexuality, for example, which is basically in the Bible, God says that if a male will have sex with a male, he will die. It's written as that. His sentence is death.
[00:12:02] Alon Goshen: Also, if a guy masturbates and his sperm is not used to conceive a child and it's just thrown on the ground with no use, then also that child should die. That person should die as well. So these two rules, for example, they make a lot of people grow up in fear of God's retribution.
[00:12:37] Alon Goshen: I met a lot of kids like that, that, you know, their natural needs when they started touching themselves and then they were living in fear that God is seeing them and is going to punish them and everything like that. Also, you have, when a woman is on her period, you're not allowed to touch her. I'm not saying sexually. You're not allowed even to, if you want, like, that she can pass you the salt,
[00:13:11] Alon Goshen: then she should leave it on the table and then you will take it from the table. She cannot even hand you the salt because she's unholy at that time.
[00:13:22] Michelle: What about self-pleasure for women?
[00:13:27] Alon Goshen: No, God doesn't mind that.
[00:13:29] Michelle: Oh, is that, that's okay?
[00:13:31] Alon Goshen: Yeah, that's totally okay. They can also have sex with other women. It's also fine.
[00:13:38] Michelle: Really?
[00:13:40] Alon Goshen: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Michelle: What is gay culture like in Israel?
[00:13:44] Alon Goshen: Israel? It's, well, Israel, well, we have a city called Tel Aviv, which is one of the biggest cities in Israel. And it's one of the friendliest cities in the world for homosexuals. We have parades. We have people, it's one, it's, it's same thing as heterosexual. You can see gay, gay couples kissing, making out and holding hands. No one's blinking.
[00:14:18] Alon Goshen: It's, it's normal thing. It's very common.
[00:14:22] Michelle: And then what if there was a gay couple in Jerusalem, let's say?
[00:14:30] Alon Goshen: Well, every time that they want to do the parade, the gay parade in Jerusalem, there is a lot of chaos around, around it. And a lot of times there are a lot of, there were even a few murders in those parades that religious people killed people from that parade. So they are very much against it.
[00:14:57] Michelle: Okay.
[00:14:58] Alon Goshen: I just want to emphasize that this, these are the ultra-orthodox.
[00:15:04] Michelle: Yes.
[00:15:05] Alon Goshen: But the average religious people, they don't care. They don't care and they, they don't listen to all of God's rules. They say, ah, this I will choose to do and this I will ignore. It's fine.
[00:15:22] Michelle: Yeah. And if you look at how religion has impacted some of the people that come into the practice and work with you and Ronit, what are some of the struggles that people are coming in with?
[00:15:45] Alon Goshen: Well, to be honest, I haven't seen a lot of religious people in surrogacy treatments because, as I said, they have a lot of restrictions. No rabbi will, I don't know if any rabbi will authorize such a treatment. They will say, go do only conversational treatments, not treatments that include touching or [unclear].
[00:16:17] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Alon Goshen: So I, I did not had, I did not work with any religious people. So I can't say that I even heard about any of those.
[00:16:31] Michelle: And then when does Ronit decide, or the clinicians that she works with, let's say, that the next step is for the client to see a sexual surrogate? Is that always the, the, the, the next step or is that just for some people?
[00:16:53] Alon Goshen: No. Um, surrogacy, uh, treatment is for people. First of all, that they don't have a couple, uh, a partner because a surrogate is the, uh, is the replacement of, of, uh, of a partner. This is, this is what the meaning of the world is. We are a couple replacement or something, a partner replacement.
[00:17:17] Alon Goshen: So whenever a person, um, wants to deal with a problem, try to overcome an obstacle that requires him or her to, um, to walk it out with, with a partner from the other gender or the same gender. Um, then, uh, then, uh, one of the recommendations is to go to a surrogate treatment.
[00:17:42] Alon Goshen: Um, it's not, uh, Ronit's call, um, basically every, every sexual therapist in Israel, they are aware that there is such a thing as a surrogate treatment. And if they are honest and, um, if they are trustworthy, uh, because not all of them are like this, uh, some of them will, will decide to, even though that they know that there is such a treatment, they will say, no, I will solve it to him. I will keep him for 10 more years.
[00:18:12] Alon Goshen: He will pay my mortgage, the patient, and, uh, and maybe, uh, we'll manage to go like this.
[00:18:20] Michelle: And so do you think it partly has to do with money? And is another part possibly that they don't believe in it or they have their own judgments about sexual surrogacy?
[00:18:39] Alon Goshen: Money, ego, disbelief, um, objections. There are a lot of reasons why some of the sex therapists don't send people to, to, uh, surrogate, uh, treatment. But, um, again, it's an option that everyone knows about it. And if it serves, uh, the client's, uh, means then they will recommend it. And then it's up to the, uh, client.
[00:19:08] Michelle: And then what's the next step after that? Once they say, yes, I'll do it. What do they choose who they want to work with?
[00:19:19] Alon Goshen: They go, they go and meet with Ronit, um, that, uh, gives them, uh, like, uh, introduction to the whole treatment. And, uh, she talks with them a little bit, finds out more a little bit about them. And, uh, Ronit decides, uh, which surrogate will, will, will, will partner up with, um, unless, uh, unless, uh, it's a sexual therapist that likes to work with a certain surrogate. And then she will always, uh, she will always choose him or her or whatever.
[00:19:55] Alon Goshen: It's, it's not the patient, uh, that, that chooses them. It's not like, uh, oh, look, here's a catalog of, uh, all the looks of all the surrogates.
[00:20:04] Michelle: Yeah, it's not like a brothel or anything.
[00:20:07] Alon Goshen: No. Not at all.
[00:20:10] Michelle: And is this kind of therapy really expensive?
[00:20:14] Alon Goshen: Unfortunately, yes. This is one of the most, more expensive therapy, uh, procedures in Israel, I think. Um, it's around give or take since in one week you meet also with the, with the, um, the conversational therapist and with the surrogate therapist. So it's two meetings.
[00:20:41] Alon Goshen: Plus you have to pay the clinic [unclear], uh, for the, for all the monitoring and, uh, the scheduling, everything and whatever. So it costs around 1, uh, 1,500 shekels, which is around, I think, 500 U.S. dollars, give or take, like something.
[00:21:07] Michelle: Okay.
[00:21:08] Alon Goshen: Per week.
[00:21:08] Michelle: Um, and how many weeks does the, the, that, the treatment partnership.
[00:21:18] Alon Goshen: Um, I think it's around 30 weeks, half a year, five months, six months. Yeah.
[00:21:28] Michelle: One of my most challenging cases that I work with are cisgendered females who describe that their mind and body feels disconnected. Um, and so when they anticipate touch or, or being touched, sometimes they numb out or aren't able to experience pleasure because they move into their head.
[00:22:02] Michelle: They move into their mind. And there's often really anxious thoughts that are going on for them. They become quite overwhelmed and tense. And this is often, but not always related to a history of sexual abuse or sexual trauma.
[00:22:27] Michelle: A lot of shame in the home growing up around sex and your body, poor body image. And then they find themselves in a relationship that feels good and safe, yet their body is still responding in a way as though they need to protect themselves. And so their vaginas will tense up.
[00:23:01] Michelle: And instead of finding ways to calm their mind, which then will help them calm their body, they'll instead push through and try to have intercourse. And this ends up by being quite painful.
[00:23:24] Michelle: So now on top of the anxiety and stress that is coming from past trauma, they now also have the fear of anticipated pain.
[00:23:38] Alon Goshen: Now, what you're describing, this is a perfect case for surrogacy treatment. Because the way that we built the treatment is, first of all, I'll explain a little bit how it goes. When the person meets, first of all, they meet with a conversational therapist. And they decide together what's going to happen.
[00:24:06] Alon Goshen: What's the upper limit that can happen in the following meeting of the surrogate and her. So, for example, if it's the first meeting, it's like the blind date. Then the limit is no touching, only talking, nothing else. No trying to kiss at the end, no trying to grope or maybe convince to go to the apartment and have sex. So nothing, just talking.
[00:24:36] Alon Goshen: And then the woman sits with me at the coffee shop and we just talk. And then we can see how she reacts to just being with me. And I sit with her for an hour and a half. I go back home and then I write a full detailed report about what happened. How she dressed, how she approached me, how she talked to me. Did she pay attention to me? Did she laugh? Did she make jokes? Everything.
[00:25:10] Michelle: And had she talked about those things with the talk therapy? Like, did she have goals in that, during that talk therapy that she was then going to practice with you at the restaurant? Let's say, like ways to have conversation.
[00:25:28] Alon Goshen: Well, usually, usually they don't have goals for the first meeting because they know how to have conversation. Usually the goal starts from, I don't know how to hold hands. I don't know how to hug. I don't know how to open up. I don't know how to kiss. I don't know how to pet. I don't know how to do all those kind of things. So, usually, most people can do that. But I already had a few patients that couldn't.
[00:26:04] Alon Goshen: And it was like a long process with them. But, yeah, they walk. They tell the therapist. They give them all of their goals. And we try to bring it, make it happen during the sessions. But, again, in a normal and steady pace. Because, for example, I still remember, I had a patient once that she was very bossy.
[00:26:38] Alon Goshen: And she never understood why no one wants to date her. After the first date, everyone would split and wouldn't return the calls and everything. And she was very bossy and very demanding and everything. And one of her goals was that she wanted to do a French kiss. Like kissing with the tongue and everything. So, we had a meeting, like the fourth or fifth meeting, that we kissed for the first time. The normal kiss.
[00:27:09] Alon Goshen: And then, on the next date, I remember meeting her outside of a theater. And I said to her, hi. And she said, hi. And she said, okay, let's French kiss. And I said, no. And she said, what do you mean, no? And I said, no, you need to make me want to kiss you French kiss. It's not like you have a goal and I'm not a sex worker.
[00:27:43] Michelle: Yeah, we need to bridge. You need to bridge your way over. You need to like.
[00:27:48] Alon Goshen: Oh, exactly. I'm your partner. You cannot tell me, do this now. Or I want this now. And then she said, she said the most terrible thing that you can say to a surrogate. And she said, but I paid you, so you need to kiss me now when I tell you to. And then I told her that this meeting is over and she's going to go now to talk with the therapist.
[00:28:18] Alon Goshen: And afterwards, I would love to hear her apology because I'm not a sex worker. I am her partner and she will not tell me that she paid for my services, so I need to kiss her. I am a therapist.
[00:28:33] Michelle: Wow. There's like so much learning, I think, that comes out of a situation like this, right? Yeah. And it just shows how maybe some of the behaviours that were getting in the way of dating before, how they do eventually come out. And you have the opportunity to be able to catch it, but use it as a therapeutic moment to work through, right? Who gets that opportunity?
[00:29:00] Alon Goshen: Yeah, exactly. What I've been meaning to say is after the date, when the patient and the conversional therapist meet again, he or she reads my entire report word by word to the client, to the patient. So she will know exactly what I thought and how I felt and everything.
[00:29:27] Alon Goshen: It's like reading the other person's mind and knowing exactly what was not right, what went wrong or anything like that. So they get like a mirror to their face about how they are being, how people conceive them, how they look, how they...
[00:29:52] Michelle: How they appear, how people perceive them.
[00:29:54] Alon Goshen: Yeah.
[00:29:56] Michelle: Now, my next question is, so then where do you learn to do this work? How do you know how to French kiss somebody in the right way or to touch somebody in the right way? Where does this come from?
[00:30:13] Alon Goshen: Well, the thing is that you need, again, to understand that the role of a surrogate is to be a partner. It doesn't have to be a psychologist partner. We don't... I don't do analysis. I don't do... I don't analyze her in the middle of our meeting. I never tell her, oh, and what did your parents have to say about it when you were little and all those kind of things.
[00:30:46] Alon Goshen: And no, I am a normal partner.
[00:30:51] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Alon Goshen: So it's okay even if I don't know how to French kiss the best because her partner, the next partner that she will have, maybe he will not know how to French kiss the best. So you don't... You are not required to be amazing in your work.
[00:31:15] Michelle: Technique, yeah.
[00:31:17] Alon Goshen: In your technique. But, well, in my other line of work, I am required to be very good at it.
[00:31:23] Michelle: So... Which other line of work?
[00:31:25] Alon Goshen: The system that I developed, the method that I'm working in my clinic, that is not relevant to the surrogate treatment. This is something I do in my clinic independently.
[00:31:40] Michelle: Right.
[00:31:40] Alon Goshen: I teach about pleasure and I teach how to connect to your body, how to experience a lot of strong emotions up until like vaginal orgasms and female ejaculation and all those kind of very, very strong things. I teach the women how to experience it by themselves, regardless of the guy, not being dependent on that. So I have that knowledge, but the other surrogates doesn't have to have it.
[00:32:14] Michelle: Right.
[00:32:14] Alon Goshen: The main thing that the surrogate has to be, they need to know their boundaries, how to keep boundaries. They need to know how to obey the rules of the clinic. They need to put the other person's needs in front of them above their own. They need to be able to resist all temptations because there are a lot of temptations, even the clients. And sometimes most of the clients, they will be very shy and they will not want to move forward.
[00:32:44] Alon Goshen: But some of them will try to move too fast because that's what they do in real life. And that's why they don't find love because they are running to bed on the first date and they don't understand why they can't find love.
[00:32:57] Michelle: I find that in my practice, the conversation that I think is always shocking to both men and women is that you don't have to jump in bed right away. And that it would make sense that you want to be able to talk and have conversation and feel connected. Right. Feel safe enough to take things to the next level and try and really working with people on how to have those conversations.
[00:33:34] Michelle: Because there's, even though there's a lot of anxiety about the date moving to sex because they, you know, they think that maybe they're not ready for it. Talking about that or the idea of not going back to the person's apartment feels so hard for them to not do that. They feel as though that is an expectation. That's like how the dating escalator works. I'm not saying hooking up is a bad thing. I think some people love that.
[00:34:06] Michelle: I'm mostly referring here to people who are in my practice who, yeah, they're either wanting to have a more long-term relationship and are having sex to accelerate that. And when it doesn't happen, there's a whole lot of disappointment. Hookups are great if you're okay with it just being a hookup and you're going to feel okay after.
[00:34:33] Alon Goshen: Yeah. So this is one of the good things about surrogacy treatment because you know exactly what's going to happen each and every date. So you don't need to be nervous about, oh, how is it going to end or what are we going to do or all those kind of things. And to answer your previous question about those women that feel this connection, not connected with the body and mind, this is perfect for surrogacy treatment because we have something that is called sensate focus.
[00:35:06] Alon Goshen: Which is something that was developed by those who developed surrogacy, which are Masters and Johnson.
[00:35:16] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:35:17] Alon Goshen: So they developed the sensate focus. And sensate focus is a method that what you do is basically you start, for example, from the hand. And you say you do only hand. Only hand. And for five minutes, she's extending her hands like this. And I'm just touching her hands in every possible way. I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I can do everything. For five minutes.
[00:35:51] Alon Goshen: And while I touch her, she needs to close her eyes and focus on how does it feel. And what do I like? Which touch did I like more? And which touch did I like less? Or whatever. Like gives me a ranking of the best of or whatever. And afterwards, we talk about it. And then we change our position. So she touches me. Even while she's touching me, she needs to think, okay, how do I like to touch?
[00:36:26] Alon Goshen: Because a lot of people, when they touch someone else, they don't think about themselves. They think about, is he enjoying this? Is she enjoying it? And you need to think about how are you going to enjoy it? Because a lot of women, for example, go for oral sex. They don't like, or they do it like, because they must, they have to or they must. But if they will start looking for how do I enjoy this?
[00:37:00] Alon Goshen: What do I get from this? Then they will start loving it. Because it has some benefits that I will not talk with you about it.
[00:37:11] Michelle: Oh, I, sensate focus is, is when I work with couples, especially, I usually always pull that out, especially if there is some tension in the relationship. They haven't had sex in a long time. Maybe there's some trust difficulties going on. Maybe there was pain during sex.
[00:37:32] Michelle: It is the one exercise that I think has been the most effective in helping my clients to go over that bridge and get to a place of having sex that feels pleasurable, where they're very much focused in the moment. It's self-centred, not selfish.
[00:37:53] Alon Goshen: And it helps connect between the, how do I feel? And I'm not thinking about the laundry or my assignment or the kids or whatever. I'm feeling exactly how does it feel on my body.
[00:38:10] Michelle: Yeah. Is the training to become a surrogate partner fairly intense?
[00:38:18] Alon Goshen: To be honest, no. It's only two weekends. Like Friday, Saturday, Friday, Saturday. That's it. The thing that makes it so, in all of Israel, I think like 15 surrogates, I think, men and women. The reason why they are so little is because it's not the, it's not the two weekends that is the problem.
[00:38:48] Alon Goshen: It's the, it's the, in order to become a surrogate, you have to go through 12 sets of psychological tests. So people can assess you and they can determine if you're right for the job. If you can, if you can maintain borders, if you can maintain the rules, if you can put the needs, everything that I said before and even more. So most people fall on that.
[00:39:21] Alon Goshen: They don't go through the, they don't have what it takes.
[00:39:28] Michelle: We'll switch focus here a little bit and we'll focus a little bit on you. Just for a moment.
[00:39:34] Alon Goshen: You can focus.
[00:39:35] Michelle: How?
[00:39:36] Alon Goshen: [unclear]
[00:39:40] Michelle: How does being a surrogate impact your ability to have relationships with other partners, like romantic relationships? How do they feel about your work?
[00:39:58] Alon Goshen: Well, to be honest, at the beginning, I thought it will, it will be disruptive for my love life, but it's not. Because those that meet me and talk with me and everything, they get to know me. For example, my ex-girlfriend, I met her on one of my lectures, of my sex lectures that I did on how to reach pleasure and everything.
[00:40:31] Alon Goshen: And I explained exactly what I do in my clinic and I talked about surrogacy and everything. So it's like, if you're even starting to be interested in talking with me, then you need to accept this to begin with, because it will be the best.
[00:40:53] Michelle: And you're also a dance instructor.
[00:40:56] Alon Goshen: I'm an instructor for a sensual dance called bachata. I travel all the world with it. I was in Hawaii for two weeks. I'm going to be in Las Vegas in September, I think. Doing also sex lecture while I'm at it. I was three months traveling all China. Did like a lot of, at night I did the Bachata.
[00:41:28] Alon Goshen: During the day I did the sex lectures and everything. And I find those two worlds combined really perfectly. And for me, it gives me a lot of drive and pleasure because I do what I teach. I'm not just saying that in my personal life. And I have a lot of pleasure. So this is, I never feel like I'm at work because it's always pleasure.
[00:41:56] Alon Goshen: And sometimes I feel bad that I'm getting a lot of money for something that I really enjoy doing and having pleasure and fun and everything.
[00:42:06] Michelle: Yeah, I agree with you. I think, I think we, our jobs are a little bit different here in that I just do the talk therapy. But I have to say, I feel like I need to pinch myself sometimes because the work is so rewarding. And you truly get opportunities to witness people transform their relationships with themselves and with others.
[00:42:37] Michelle: And yeah, I wouldn't know how to do this work without practicing what I preach.
[00:42:45] Alon Goshen: Yes, well, it's just like any other instructor. I mean, you can't be a swim instructor and not knowing how to swim very, very good. So yeah, I practice what I teach. Again, most things are very natural. I don't teach complicated techniques. I don't teach all those kind of things. I teach, basically, I teach back to the basics.
[00:43:14] Alon Goshen: Because our body, when we are having pleasure, when we are having pleasurable sex, our body wants to do several things. It wants to move. It wants to make sounds. It wants to breathe differently. It wants to touch things. It wants to do all sorts of things. But during the lifetime, our lifetime, we develop some beliefs that are making us not do what our body wants us to do.
[00:43:45] Alon Goshen: For example, if I was raised as a person that needs to maintain my honor, like a woman that has to maintain her honor and dignity. So a dignified woman will not open her legs in bed because it's not dignity. So she will keep her legs closed even though she feels the urge sometimes to open them.
[00:44:10] Alon Goshen: Or if I grew up and people told me that porn is bad, and I saw that in porn, women moan and they twist and shout and they squirt and they do a lot of things. Then I will not allow me to do that because I'm a very respectable woman. I respect myself and I will not behave like a porn star. So people limit themselves on how they react and they don't understand that by doing that, they close their body to pleasure.
[00:44:44] Alon Goshen: And then they don't understand why they are having sex when they are not breathing, they are not moving, they are not talking, they are not doing anything. They are just laying there waiting for the guy to hopefully to do something good. And when that doesn't happen because the guy is not a telepathic person, they don't enjoy the sex. And slowly, slowly they stop wanting to have sex. The desire, the need, all of that is gone as well.
[00:45:20] Alon Goshen: So once they learn how to do that, all desire comes back right up.
[00:45:26] Michelle: I'm not sure if it was Esther Perel or Emily Nagoski that said this, but it had to do with self-pleasure. And that we know how to tell somebody what we don't like. But without self-pleasure, you don't know how to tell somebody what you do like. It's like the floor where it all builds.
[00:45:52] Alon Goshen: Yeah, this is the base. This is the base that you need to build your house of pleasure upon. Yeah, this is the fundamental thing.
[00:46:02] Michelle: Alon, you have been awesome. Thank you so much for coming on GETSOME.
[00:46:10] Alon Goshen: No problem. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
[00:46:13] Michelle: Awesome.
[00:46:13] Alon Goshen: I really liked hosting.
[00:46:15] Michelle: Yay!
[00:46:16] Alon Goshen: So thank you very much for having me.
[00:46:18] Michelle: Oh, you are so welcome. Take care. If you have a question, a confession, or an inspirational story, send me an email to the confession booth at michelle@getsome.ca and you just might hear it on the air. I hope you enjoyed GETSOME. If you'd like to listen to more episodes. Subscribe to wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And until then, be kind to yourself, be curious, and when you're ready, your sexual journey will unfold.
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