In this evocative episode, Toronto-based Rahat Pye, MSW, RSW — an adolescent, individual, family, and couples therapist — unravels the deeply personal story of her mother, a Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) survivor from Bombay, India. Diving deep into the trauma, defiance, and resilience, Rahat sheds light on the stark realities of FGM and its profound effect on her mother's life. As the narrative unfolds, we explore the paradox of a mother who, despite her own harrowing experiences, championed the significance of sexual health, intimacy, and pleasure. Tune in for this captivating and insightful conversation you won't want to miss!
In this evocative episode, Toronto-based Rahat Pye, MSW, RSW — an adolescent, individual, family, and couples therapist — unravels the deeply personal story of her mother, a Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) survivor from Bombay, India. Diving deep into the trauma, defiance, and resilience, Rahat sheds light on the stark realities of FGM and its profound effect on her mother's life. As the narrative unfolds, we explore the paradox of a mother who, despite her own harrowing experiences, championed the significance of sexual health, intimacy, and pleasure. Tune in for this captivating and insightful conversation you won't want to miss!
Show Notes
[00:00:00] Rahat shares her perspective on FGM and believes it should not happen to anyone.
[00:00:17] Introduction to Rahat, a social worker from Toronto who tells the story of her mother, a survivor of FGM from Bombay, India.
[00:00:43] Explanation of FGM and its severe consequences, including that it's illegal in Canada.
[00:01:14] Rahat mentions her grandfather’s political involvement and how her mother was raised with a mix of tradition and resistance.
[00:01:33] Michelle touches on the trauma of FGM and its implications on her mother's relationship with sex.
[00:02:08] Rahat describes her mother’s painful experiences related to childbirth and FGM.
[00:03:16] Rahat shares that her mother underwent FGM as a young girl in Bombay.
[00:04:09] Rahat contemplates the impact of FGM on her mother's life and her defiance against it.
[00:05:53] Rahat emphasizes that her mother saw sex as important, valuable, and as a means of connection, despite her FGM experience.
[00:06:35] Michelle queries how Rahat learned about her mother’s FGM experience.
[00:07:39] Discussion on how Rahat's mother emphasized the importance of knowledge about their own bodies and sexual health.
[00:09:47] Rahat reflects on her mother’s will to learn and teach about the body and pleasure.
[00:10:57] Rahat provides a backstory on her mother’s immigration to Canada.
[00:13:14] Rahat discusses her mother’s experience with the medical system, trauma during childbirth, and how this affected their relationship.
[00:15:37] Rahat describes her mother's trauma and difficulty around FGM, and how it related to her trust in her body and how it functioned.
[00:15:57] Rahat's mother felt isolated and different due to her FGM experience, especially in a community where she was the only person of color.
[00:16:28] Michelle mentions the fear FGM survivors face when visiting a new doctor or gynecologist, fearing both physical examination and the doctor's reaction.
[00:17:29] Rahat and Michelle discuss the shame and societal perceptions associated with women who have undergone FGM.
[00:18:07] Rahat recalls her mother's bold and rebellious behavior, which she believes may have been her way of reclaiming her body after the trauma of FGM.
[00:18:48] Rahat reflects on her mother's openness about sex and sexuality while growing up.
[00:19:28] Rahat attributes her ease in discussing sexuality to her mother's openness and lack of shame about the subject.
[00:20:06] Michelle emphasizes the significance of Rahat's mother transforming her traumatic experience into a positive force for Rahat and her sister.
[00:21:56] Rahat reflects on her complicated relationship with her mother, admiring her resilience and ability to turn traumatic experiences into positive life lessons.
[00:23:46] Rahat comments on the continuation of FGM in certain parts of the world.
[00:25:46] Rahat describes her mother's determination to reclaim her sexuality.
[00:26:42] Rahat believes her mother would be proud of her for participating in this interview and openly discussing FGM.
[00:27:26] Rahat delves into her mother's attachment trauma and reflects on her own experiences related to childbirth, finding a connection between the two.
[00:28:48] Michelle discusses the intergenerational impact of trauma, highlighting the ripple effects of Rahat's mother's experience on Rahat.
[00:29:49] Rahat emphasizes the importance of understanding and discussing the realms of sex, pleasure, and intimacy and the significance of culture and belief systems in shaping one's identity.
[00:31:41] Michelle If you are in Canada and you believe you or someone you know is at risk of undergoing FGM, please seek assistance through your local police or child protective services. In addition, if you or the person at risk is a Canadian citizen abroad, please contact the nearest Canadian embassy or consulate. Call 1 613 996 8885.
[INTRO THEME MUSIC]
[00:00:00] Rahat: And I think the FGM was not something that should have ever happened to her or to anybody.
[00:00:17] Michelle: Today we meet with Pye. Rahat is from Toronto, Canada and a practicing social worker and psychotherapist in private practice. She tells the story of her mother who grew up in Bombay, India, and who was a survivor of female genital mutilation (F G M.) F G M involves the partial or total removal of the clitoris and or labia, as well as other injuries to the vulva.
[00:00:43] For non-medical reasons. There are absolutely no health benefits to F G M and in Canada. It is considered a form of aggravated assault. It is illegal. And any individual who performs or helps with the practice, including those who take a child abroad for the practice, can be criminally charged. Listen as we take a deep dive into Rahat's mother's larger than life persona that screamed of resiliency and strength.
[00:01:14] Rahat: My grandfather was a freedom fighter and was very political. So although there was traditional pieces of her growing up within the religion and the culture, there was also pieces where she was taught to really fight against. So her experience was that she really pushed against everything that happened with and to her.
[00:01:33] [00:01:33] Michelle: But who also suffered greatly from the trauma of FGM. We talk about how FGM complicated her relationship to sex.
[00:01:42] Rahat: How did it affect her relationship to sex and sexuality? I think she was like, nobody is going to take me down. To the health care system when she was dying and my sister and I very intimately and part of that process other pieces of the medical system and how she was taken care of as a woman and around reproduction became very apparent and towards Rahat
[00:02:08] Rahat: so she She had a trauma giving birth to me. She had an episiotomy that was very deep and very aggressive. So every time there would be something around her genitals where there was pressure or intensity, it was desperately painful. That layered on top of the FGM impacted our relationship, I think, in a way that was more kind of subconscious implicit than really explicit.
[00:02:36] [00:02:37] Michelle: No details of the FGM are provided during the episode. I hope you enjoy this episode and learn as much as I did.
[00:02:53] I want to start with how we connected. You and I were talking over the phone about your interest in becoming a certified sex therapist and somehow we organically shifted into talking about our mothers.
[00:03:09] Rahat: Mm hmm. And Somehow that happens with therapists.
[00:03:16] Michelle: And you mentioned that your mother, who actually passed away at the beginning of COVID, had undergone FGM, which is female genital mutilation, as a young girl growing up in Bombay, India.
[00:03:35] That's right. We spoke about how that impacted her relationship to sexual intimacy, and also how it impacted how she educated you and your sister about sex. When you... Reflects on your mother's life journey. How much do you think that the ways in which she moved through life was impacted by having undergone FGM?
[00:04:09] [00:04:09] Rahat: When we were preparing for this, thinking about it, you know, the first thing that came to mind was, Oh, it wasn't just that one piece, but I actually think that one piece is symbolic of so much of how she lived her life. As a Muslim woman in a place like India. And so I think it inevitably impacted massively, but not the way I think that people would assume it did in that.
[00:04:37] My mom was a very complicated human being. And she grew up in a pretty liberal family. And my grandfather was a freedom fighter and was very political. So although there was traditional pieces of her growing up within the religion and the culture, there was also pieces where she was taught to really fight against.
[00:04:59] And my [00:05:00] mom in her family of five was absolutely. the fighter. And so her experience was that she really pushed against everything that happened with and to her in that culture. How old was she? 11 or 12. Okay. And even from that age, she was a fighter, you know, which was complicated by some more significant mental health.
[00:05:23] issues as she grew older, which were likely budding prior to her adolescence. But I, you know, I think these traumatic moments when we have these vulnerabilities can amplify. Our mental health or our gene expression or whatever's happening. So, to answer your question, how did it affect her relationship to sex and sexuality, I think she was like, nobody is going to take me down.
[00:05:53] And I am going to become more in charge of myself. Sex was important to her and valuable to her. Yeah. And I think what was really important to her was intimacy and pleasure. And that pleasure created connection, which is not the intention of FGM. Right.
[00:06:15] Michelle: If we go back to what you know, and maybe she told you this, like her memory of this was that she was around, family was there, her memory is that she was fighting like hell to get People off of her like she needed to be held down.
[00:06:35] Yeah. How did you learn about this?
[00:06:38] Rahat: She didn't talk about it a lot. And you know, some other people in her family have described bits of it It's not something that was talked about a lot because I think there's shame around it My whole family moved here and really did the best they could in the late 60s to really assimilate right so a lot of conversation or dialogue around a lot of what happened in India was sort of, I believe, lost in their move here.
[00:07:05] What she talked about a lot when I was growing up was that she felt that the process went sideways and not in the way that was intended and that she had a lot more arousal once she kind of healed and grew up. That she would talk about a lot.
[00:07:29] Michelle: How would that come up though? Was it during the times that she was trying to like talk with you and your sister about your bodies and pleasure or?
[00:07:39] Rahat: [00:07:40] You know, it would often come up in her dialogue around Intimacy with my dad and frustration she may have had around that. You know, really her need was to be connected and for her sex was about pleasure. Yeah. And it was about connection and it was about love. All of those things, I think having equal weight or being weighted differently at different moments in time.
[00:08:01] She was also educated. She was a dentist when she finally immigrated here. She went to dental school here. She was educated as a doctor in India. You know, she was very bright. It was very important for her that we knew as much as we could about our bodies and our whole bodies. Right? The importance of exercise, the importance of brushing our teeth every day and flossing, and the importance of our like sexual and reproductive anatomy.
[00:08:27] Michelle: Fascinating. So her experience actually translated into providing knowledge to you and your sister and ownership. over their bodies. The FGM for her, I guess, gave her the drive to give that information to you to protect the two of you and to feel power and control of your
[00:08:57] Rahat: body. I think it was a little bit to more for her this idea of pleasure.
[00:09:04] And that pleasure and sex was really important. Coming here, she spoke a lot about, like, what she felt was very stuffy about, you know, the Canadian culture, or what was so limited and boundaried and unemotional. She was intensely emotional. Generally speaking, the people that I know from different cultures express their emotion more transparently.
[00:09:29] You know, whether it was anger, whether it was joy, whether it was pleasure. So that was really important to her. It was really important to her that we knew that it was something that could be really, really, really, in her mind, pleasurable.
[00:09:41] Michelle: Was there someone that taught her about this as a younger person after having undergone this?
[00:09:47] Or I wonder if it was just more her wanting to just fight back and learn as much about her body as
[00:09:56] Rahat: possible. That sounds more like her. That sounds more true. [00:10:00] You know, she was always trying to teach me something. And I remember like being in her bed, there were diagrams, there were anatomy books, there was everything happening.
[00:10:11] She was very open to, I think like different peoples and different expressions of sexuality. Often when I sit around with friends and we're talking about, you know, people who are, Outside of heteronormative possibilities and they're questioning or unsure or it doesn't make sense to them. Like, it just seems obvious to me.
[00:10:37] It just seems obvious that there's more possibilities to me. So, and that was always just
[00:10:44] Michelle: true. What was her story in terms of how she ended up immigrating to Canada? That was... That's something that she put together
[00:10:57] Rahat: herself. Her family of origin was very complicated. It wasn't always safe. Her older sister was in an arranged marriage and she came to Canada with her husband and had a child.
[00:11:11] She then divorced her husband and they actually stayed best friends the whole way through their, his entire life until he passed away. My aunt needed a caregiver and my mom. I wanted to come to Canada, so she immigrated and came and started medical school, lived with my aunt for a few years, helped raise her nephew, and then went to school.
[00:11:34] You know, meanwhile, her next youngest sister was off at medical school in London. Another sister came eventually and began law school. So they all eventually came over to have a different opportunity. She didn't talk a whole lot about her life in India. I mean, there's pieces and parts. I do know a few pieces about some sexual trauma that happened there, you know, and I know a lot about her younger years.
[00:12:00] She was a very, very accomplished athlete. She was a decathlete. So I know a fair bit about that. And then I know a lot of my story from my aunts and uncles about. What she was like. And she was, you know, certainly the more challenging one in the family. And she was like that her whole life. You know, my mom was very, very, very justice minded.
[00:12:27] Yeah. And so that came out in everything. And it came out in the idea around sex and intimacy. And again, I would say really like her belief that it was a really important part of a relationship.
[00:12:39] Michelle: How do you think that FGM affected how your mother felt about her. Own body and how that may have come up, let's say either in the medical system, healthcare system, things that maybe she said to you, because it sounds like when she was talking about it was more about wanting to give you and your sister a chance to have a different experience than what she had.
[00:13:11] And I wondered if you were aware of any of the struggles that came up
[00:13:14] Rahat: for her. She didn't talk about it with regard to FGM. But when she was dying and my sister and I very intimately and part of that process, other pieces of the medical system and how she was taken care of as a woman and around reproduction became very apparent in ways that were quite surprising and that she kind of spoken about, but not in the same way, you know, when she was medicated and more lucid and for her, I mean, and this was always, I think for her was how it was so male dominated.
[00:13:49] And not only by who was in the professional position, but just the philosophy in general. So she had a trauma giving birth to me. She had an episiotomy that was very deep and very aggressive and very painful, I believe. And I think that layered on top of the FGM was more traumatic and, you know, as we know, traumas on traumas on traumas create.
[00:14:16] more difficult trauma responses. And that impacted our relationship, I think, which I didn't really realize. I mean, we had a very challenging relationship and my belief at the time was around more of her mental health issues. But when she was dying. She kind of explained. So she had this big thing about not ever being constipated, which is a bit, and we are always like mom.
[00:14:40] And we thought it was around cleanliness and around hygiene and around how in her culture, you know, you wash yourself, you do other things once you've finished going to the bathroom. But what became obvious and what she described is that every time she had a bowel movement, she had excruciating pain from the birth.
[00:14:59] [00:15:00] So, That sort of stuff, so every time there would be something around her genitals, where there was pressure or intensity, it was desperately painful. So then, if she had any struggles with her bowel movements, it would bring all that back. Which then affected our relationship, I believe, in a way that was more like, you know, kind of subconscious implicit than really explicit.
[00:15:28] And she would just get obsessed. And then we would be like, Mom, stop.
[00:15:35] Michelle: Obsessed about what?
[00:15:37] Rahat: Making sure that she could go to the bathroom. Like she, and then, and it was really about the pain, which I think, you know, goes back when you answer your question, which was then about the medical system, which was then about her relationship to her body and how she felt her body may be.
[00:15:57] Like, she could count on it or not count on it. In terms of her, like, physicality around the FGM, I mean, I think she always felt like she didn't fit in here. You know, we grew up in a small town. She was the only person of color. And I think it's, you know, another way that you feel different without it being, like, right out there.
[00:16:22] You know, a process, an experience that you can't speak about with anybody else. I
[00:16:28] Michelle: have clients in my practice who have undergone FGM and a lot of the fear they have is going to see a new family doctor. or needing to go see a gynecologist for something. And the fear is one about somebody coming close to their vulva.
[00:16:56] But number two, it's also the fear about the reaction that the doctor will have when they see that they have had this procedure done. And I remember somebody describing. The doctor looking at her with just eyes of pity and just never wanting to have to deal with that ever again. And...
[00:17:29] Rahat: Shame of it, right?
[00:17:31] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Worrying about how other people are going to view you for having had this
[00:17:39] Rahat: done. Which I do wonder if part of... How my mom could be so out there with her body. Like, there was things that she would do, you know, I remember being away on the weekends and she'd be flashing her boobs or mooning or, and I wonder, which, you know, back then was like, I wonder if that was her response to say, like, I'm claiming myself back.
[00:18:07] Like, this belongs to me. She had a thing about, you know, when somebody was approved. Or when somebody couldn't embrace the, the fun or the playfulness around that and she didn't really have any space or time to hear from anybody, well, that offends me. She's like, well, go find another party. Basically,
[00:18:29] That was sort of her thing. I will say one way that it's really impacted me is like I have young. Female adolescence. Yeah. You know, I would say I certainly have not talked about sex and sexuality as much as my mom did when I was growing up in their younger years. And I actually regret that as I get older.
[00:18:48] And I think I didn't, not because of shame, but because it wasn't right in front of me. They weren't in relationships. They weren't asking about it. I mean, we talked about it when it came up, but, you know, my mom made it really, really Explicit. But, you know, as my girls are getting older and moving into different types of relationships, it is something that is very easy to talk
[00:19:17] Michelle: about.
[00:19:18] And you would say that the reason it feels so easy for you to talk about is because your mother was so...
[00:19:28] Rahat: Open. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't feel any discomfort. I don't feel any shame about it. I don't even worry. But I also think, you know, there's a way in how she educated us that was also around the biology of it all.
[00:19:43] Right. Which really was useful and explained why the pleasure comes because of the biology. So I think that's been a big. piece for me. And that was the piece that then got me interested in exploring becoming a sex therapist. [00:20:00] I thought, wow, this does not feel uncomfortable to me. This is something I can talk about.
[00:20:06] What
[00:20:06] Michelle: is it like for you being at a point in your life now where you're starting to reflect on where you are now and how, what may have contributed to you getting here where you are More open talking about sex interested in maybe finding ways to support people through sexual concerns and being able to connect that back to Your mother's experience, which for her started as being quite traumatic.
[00:20:44] And then she was able to find a way to turn that into a real, it sounds like almost like a gift for you and your sister, and certainly I'm not. Saying that your relationship with your mother wasn't complicated. It's a really fascinating story because it doesn't always turn out this way. Right? Many of the people I work with who have undergone this procedure will.
[00:21:17] Often go in the opposite direction of really starting to make their world really small, not wanting to, or having fears around intimacy, difficulties with trusting difficulties with. Accepting their body, accepting their evolving, really like struggling with transferring that into being able to connect with somebody else or like go to see a doctor.
[00:21:49] What is it like for you knowing that Your mother had quite a different experience than that.
[00:21:56] Rahat: I mean, it's amazing. I mean, as you were saying all that, I got, I could feel myself getting teary. You know, my mom, yeah, we had a terribly difficult relationship. She was a terribly difficult person. And really, underneath all these layers of trauma was this incredibly lovely, fabulous human who just really desperately wanted to connect.
[00:22:17] And it was when she was She was dying. She had cancer. So many things happened that made me appreciate who she was and appreciate what she had been through and how she had had this capacity really to survive so much of it. And some of that was in her like very difficult interpersonal stuff, but also that she had this really amazing way of kind of bringing all sorts of different parts of herself.
[00:22:53] To a place where she could use a moment or a situation or a relationship to bring something good to the surface. So I feel really lucky, even in all these challenging times, boasted about my mom did this. You know, when I hear people say, my parents never talked to me about anything. Um, I mean, I know that to be true.
[00:23:15] I understand that. I can't integrate it. Because it just was not... What happened? And you know, I have to give my dad massive credit because he didn't come from a family like that and He was very comfortable letting her do that It was okay to talk about these things.
[00:23:46] Michelle: When you reflect back on this conversation about FGM and the impact that it had on your mother and also knowing that in certain parts of the world this procedure is still happening, how do you think about this given that it was something that was incredibly close to home for you? You know, I
[00:24:13] Rahat: don't know that I really have words for that because it is, I mean, my mom is certainly an anomaly.
[00:24:25] And what she did describe about what happened to her is horrifying. The fact that it hasn't really ever been spoken about in our family, or that she didn't really speak about it when she could speak about many things. I mean, I think that says a lot, right? I think my mom may have had this experience of telling or embracing or, or wanting to advocate for our own sexuality or relationship to sex.[00:25:00]
[00:25:00] No matter what. And I think the FGM was something that happened that maybe made it a little bit louder, amplified it a bit more, but it's not something that should have ever happened to her or to anybody. I think that she took something that was very traumatic and tried to It's been a, in a way that she could integrate it into her own world.
[00:25:23] You know, when she talked about, I feel like it was a botched procedure and I horseback ride and I have an orgasm or I play tennis and I have an orgasm or I, was that what she
[00:25:33] Michelle: would say?
[00:25:34] Rahat: Oh yeah. All the time. I don't know if that's true or not. I mean, I'm going to assume it was true, but I think it was really in response to actually fuck you.
[00:25:46] Like, fuck you. Yeah. I'm going to claim this back. You know, there was people in her life, family and friends that would be really offended by that, but she didn't care because I think it just gave her a different agenda. But I think she would have had that agenda regardless. And I think she had it because something really awful happened to her.
[00:26:05] And I think for her, her thing was, I struggled so much. That they botched it and I won. Like that, that's how my mother would think. She would think I won. It's all about winning for her. So I think that was her narrative. I mean, I don't know if she felt that much pleasure or not. I don't really know. But I do know that she didn't want to feel like it took her down.
[00:26:32] Yeah.
[00:26:33] Michelle: How do you think your mother would feel? If she knew you were doing this interview right now,
[00:26:42] Rahat: I think she'd be really proud. I think she'd also say, Oh, but remember to say this part.
[00:26:48] Michelle: You mentioned earlier that the birth that she had, that was so traumatic for her where she needed to have the episiotomy.
[00:27:01] It was the birth of you and that that may have contributed to some of the difficulties. In her ability to connect with you. Can you say
[00:27:26] Rahat: more about that? She had attachment trauma. And so, uh, you know, she had this dilemma with wanting to raise strong women that as they became strong, women felt like they were intruding on her.
[00:27:44] And so it was always complicated and, you know, I had, uh, an unplanned C section with my first child. My daughter was breech foot length and it was really traumatic for me. Like the, the actual moment of it was fine, the doing it was fine, the healing and the recovery was horrible. And I remember the level of frustration and I, I didn't have the traumas that she'd had.
[00:28:08] So when she was dying and she was describing it and she was describing why it actually hurt, like she connected the dots for me. I was like,
[00:28:21] okay, you know, it felt really good actually. It felt good because it made it make sense. It made it much more logical for me. And then I could relate to my own experience and about how that was so hard for me and how frustrated I was and, you know, when the baby would cry and I couldn't comfort the baby because I couldn't get out of bed.
[00:28:43] It just made it make sense. Which is why we go to therapy.
[00:28:48] Michelle: Yeah, and it shows the impact of trauma and the intergenerational impact of trauma, right? And though you hadn't undergone FGM, your mother, her experience of it, she adapted in some amazingly creative ways to overcome the trauma, but it can't just skip you.
[00:29:13] You don't even notice it. And you don't even really fully understand it until you get the opportunity that you were able to have with your mother in some of her final moments where it sounds like you had some really, really enlightening and precious conversations. Mm hmm. How are you feeling right now?
[00:29:36] I feel good. Good.
[00:29:38] Rahat: And I feel lucky.
[00:29:41] Michelle: Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to
[00:29:49] Rahat: say? You know, kind of beyond talking about how to stay safe sexually and safe with intimacy, The importance [00:30:00] of sex and pleasure and intimacy and all the different things that being in a relationship with your whole body means.
[00:30:09] Whatever your partner looks like, however you choose to express that, that when you understand sex and it feels safe and you're able to be in it in a way that is really empowered and embodied, can really add different dimensions to your connection.
[00:30:29] Michelle: Yeah. And also just understanding culture and belief systems and how important.
[00:30:38] those parts can be to understanding who you are. And, and also realizing that there's choice. You can take parts of your culture and belief systems that feel good for you. And then you can also choose to put ones that don't resonate with you on the shelf.
[00:31:00] Rahat: Absolutely. And I guess also to add to that, like this idea of like attachment, that our attachment patterns can also come out in our sex and sexuality.
[00:31:10] And that as we understand those more and heal them more and move to a place where we are able to be more interconnected. Those other expressions of our interconnectedness can really flourish. And when there's more struggles around that, that can also come out in those places as well. Rahat,
[00:31:30] Michelle: this has been such a pleasure.
[00:31:32] Thank you.
[00:31:33] Rahat: Likewise. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
[00:31:41] Michelle: If you are in Canada and you believe you or someone you know is at risk of undergoing FGM, please seek assistance through your local police or child protective services. In addition, if you or the person at risk is a Canadian citizen abroad, please contact the nearest Canadian embassy or consulate. Call 1 613 996 8885.
[00:32:10] We're going to leave it here for today. If you have any questions or something to say about something that we said during this episode, send us an email at michelle at getsome dot ca. Also, follow us on Instagram at GetSome underscore podcast. This show is produced by Katie Jensen at Vocal Fry Studios.
[00:32:38] Thank you for listening.