Money is a major source of stress for so many people. We’re always thinking about it, talking about it, and worrying about it. But it’s rare that we think about the way that money affects our sexual relationships. Listen in to our conversation with Master Certified Ontological Coach, Tracey Burns, as we navigate through the seldom-discussed dynamic of money and sex. We delve into how money's influence extends far beyond the wallet and into the heart. We illuminate the challenges and opportunities that arise when navigating income differences with a partner, emphasizing the importance of open, honest conversations about finances. Today, Tracey is a renowned coach, speaker, and advocate for financial wellness in relationships. Where to Find Tracey: Website: https://www.traceyburns.com/
Money is a major source of stress for so many people. We’re always thinking about it, talking about it, and worrying about it. But it’s rare that we think about the way that money affects our sexual relationships. Listen in to our conversation with Master Certified Ontological Coach, Tracey Burns, as we navigate through the seldom-discussed dynamic of money and sex. We delve into how money's influence extends far beyond the wallet and into the heart. We illuminate the challenges and opportunities that arise when navigating income differences with a partner, emphasizing the importance of open, honest conversations about finances.
Today, Tracey is a renowned coach, speaker, and advocate for financial wellness in relationships.
[00:00:00] Introduction to the Episode: Tracey discusses the impact of financial disparities on relationships and introduces the main themes of the conversation.
[00:00:34] The Relationship Escalator: Michelle talks about the dynamics she observes in couples regarding financial discussions and moving in together.
[01:03] Money and Shame: Tracey delves into how money conversations can be laden with shame and how to approach them.
[01:20] Sex, Money, and Society's Expectations: The relationship between sex, money, and societal pressures is explored, with insights on how these aspects influence each other.
[02:11] Ontological Coaching and Money Dynamics: Tracey explains ontological coaching and its application to understanding personal relationships with money.
[03:06] Using Money Conversations to Enhance Relationships: Discussion on how transparent conversations about finances can actually improve intimacy and relationship satisfaction.
[04:05] The Conversation with Tracey Burns: Michelle introduces her guest, Tracey Burns, for a deep dive into the nuances of money and relationships.
[06:01] Unpacking Financial Discrepancies in Partnerships: Tracey provides insights on how couples can navigate differences in income and financial management.
[07:40] Expectations vs. Reality in Financial Contributions: The discussion turns to managing expectations around financial contributions and understanding each other's financial standing.
[09:07] Adapting to Changes in Financial Dynamics: Strategies for couples to support each other through financial ups and downs.
[13:56] Unlearning Sexual Shame: Michelle introduces an online module aimed at addressing sexual shame and its ties to financial well-being.
[14:35] Emotional Infidelity and Financial Secrets: Tracey and Michelle discuss the parallels between discovering financial secrets and emotional infidelity.
[24:05] Closing Thoughts and Where to Find Tracey: The episode wraps up with final thoughts on money, relationships, and how to connect with Tracey Burns for more insights.
[00:00:00] Tracey: If you're considering moving in together, a really good way to think about this is what are the things that I currently call my secret single behavior that I'm unwilling or have been up to this point, unwilling to actually share? Like, do you go home and eat a bag of Doritos? It'll now suddenly be exposed or there'll be a lot of masking involved when you do move in together. [00:00:26] Get some insight, get some fun, get some pleasure, [00:00:30] get some yeah. [00:00:34] Michelle: In my practice, one dynamic that I see when a couple has been together for maybe a year or two, they're wanting to move up the relationship escalator and move in with each other. And maybe one person's more comfortable talking about money than the other. The one who's comfortable with money wants to have the conversation with their partner about their shared financial situation. [00:00:56] And oftentimes it comes up in therapy because they can see [00:01:00] how uneasy their partner is with answering those questions about it. [00:01:03] Tracey: How are you with money? What are your perceptions or beliefs about money? You know, it's those tough and tricky conversations that contain so much shame and can shrink anyone at the mere mention of them. [00:01:20] Today [00:01:20] Michelle: we're talking about the relationship between sex and money and why our money mindset can sometimes be a total Boner killer. Both sex and money can make people [00:01:30] feel like we're not measuring up to society's expectations of us. We're not having enough sex, or not having the right kind of sex. We're not making enough money, or the right kind of money. [00:01:40] To help us unpack this, we're joined by Master Certified Ontological Coach, Tracy Burns. [00:01:46] Tracey: Ontological coaching is essentially the study of being, basically the way a person perceives their world or their situation or whatever is happening to them. We use language, we use semantics [00:02:00] and physiology, so I'm listening to a client's body language, which is multi sensory, like we can pick up so much. [00:02:09] So that's it in a nutshell. [00:02:11] Michelle: And even Tracy has had to work on her own dynamic with money. I was [00:02:15] Tracey: brought up in a household where no one spoke about money. It was something that you didn't talk about with your best friends, your colleagues. It was considered to be a very private situation. And [00:02:30] so did a lot of deep diving, obviously my early days of coach training with regards to my relationship with money and the implications of that. [00:02:38] Michelle: Sometimes with couples, it can be easier to talk about money first and sex later. [00:02:43] Tracey: Getting right into the heart of a sexual matter is too touchy. Well, let's look at some of your patterns and money. Can we discover anything here? that you could parallel. Does it show up in sex also? Something we'll discover about money can also [00:03:00] support you in your conversations regarding sex or your experience of sex or your perceptions about it. [00:03:06] So we can use one to explore the other. If you've [00:03:11] Michelle: ever wondered how to talk to your partner about money or sex, no matter how long you've been together, this episode is for you. [00:03:19] Tracey: Actually, it's super sexy in a relationship where we clean up. The ways that we have been relating to each other that actually can be like, you know, having a new [00:03:30] partner so when we can distinguish how we've been perceiving someone and we can actually own that in ourselves. [00:03:41] And we can engage our partner in those conversations. We can kind of break up with the ways maybe we were fixing them, caretaking them. We can take a look, what automatic ways have I stepped in to compensate or [00:04:00] overcompensate or caretake, rather than, yeah, what does compassion look like? [00:04:05] Michelle: Here's my conversation with Tracy Burns. [00:04:16] Tracey: What do you [00:04:17] Michelle: think? It's that creates that discomfort around opening up and letting somebody in to their [00:04:30] bank account. [00:04:31] Tracey: Well, number one can be situational, you know, is trust missing or have they maybe raised something that felt vulnerable or scary for them and their partner met them with a big reaction and Being willing to share that. [00:04:46] Hey, I shared something vulnerable with you and I got a big reaction and over here That had me withdraw a little trust, and I'd like to restore that trust with you. Can we have a do over [00:05:00] and talk about that again? So it kind of comes back to basic communication, foundational stuff, and step by step leaning into it. [00:05:08] Michelle: There's the scenario where there's one person who is really holding their single private bank account to themselves and then the other person may have a very different relationship with money where maybe it was just you. Talked about more with their family, [00:05:30] but there are situations where that same person might see their partner's bank account situation or their credit card debt as scary and threatening and not sure if they're going to be able to trust their partner with their finances. [00:05:51] I wonder if. There's a way that the person in that scenario can reflect on [00:06:00] where that's coming [00:06:01] Tracey: from. Yeah, definitely. For example, you know, if somebody has a disparity in income, but hasn't fully disclosed, maybe there's a sense in the relationship. I think when you share space with someone, you sense things, and maybe if you haven't spoken about them. [00:06:19] That sense can get in the way of that disparity same with if someone is ashamed of the debt that they hold that you can pick [00:06:30] up on, there will be something lingering or that you can sense in the relationship where something's off. And I think a lot of people tend to. Go a bit confrontational and a lot of compassion needs to be brought to these spaces Recognizing that it's a real privilege when someone does share these things with you The other thing about different family values different ways that you were brought up around money So again, I really think compassion in a relationship you can build [00:07:00] trust and we need that trust in money With each other and also clear agreement. [00:07:07] So once you're able to then talk about it, right, it's like, thanks for sharing with me, you know, that you do have a high debt load and what's your plan to pay that off and even the nitty gritty conversations that are, what's your expectation around when we're living together and maybe your debt load exceeds your ability to pay [00:07:30] rent or mortgage, or how's that going to go with us? [00:07:34] What do you see? And how do you need me to be as your partner? It's a complex subject. [00:07:40] Michelle: Well, it is a complex subject, because when you are in a relationship where there is a wealth discrepancy Right? Do you just expect that it's 50 50? Totally. Or do you pay things according to the ratio? [00:07:58] Tracey: Well, I always like to say [00:08:00] expectation leads to great disappointment, and it's always best to err. [00:08:05] Hey, I noticed that my expectation was this, and I actually end to own that. So it's like, I really apologize for what that expectation actually put on you. Now let's have a conversation to lay the groundwork. Hey, I want to own that. I have put my expectation on you. I apologize for that. So and again, [00:08:30] where it gets super tricky, it's like, you know, say we translate this actually and draw the parallel in sex. [00:08:36] So it might be a real turn on for a woman to want to be the one that's taken care of. So if we use, for example, a female lawyer. You know, high powered professional earning top dollar, top of their game in their career in a long term relationship and say suddenly their partner loses a job or meets disability in some regards and [00:09:00] is out of work for a while, incapacitated, then immediately the energy shifts. [00:09:07] But. Even although the energy shifts because the situation has shifted with a really good conversation, the way of being doesn't need to shift. The individual who is debilitated or who has lost their job can still bring a powerful way of being in the absence of the [00:09:30] measure of, I'm the one that's earning. [00:09:32] What can I do to actually build myself, my way of being to come back to center? And bring power back into this relationship, absent of all of those external things. And cultivating it in each other will support a couple to actually really get through these times. It gets tricky where something is prolonged because in the beginning we might have an expectation of how quickly someone should [00:10:00] rebound. [00:10:01] Be really checking in on, hey, what are the biases, judgments, and assumptions I'm throwing on my partner currently about how fast they should be healing, how quickly they should be getting a job, how quickly that debt should be being paid off. Or, shame on you for recurring debt in the first place. We have to be super mindful. [00:10:20] And self aware of, are we doing that? Are we judging our partners? What preconceived notions do we have about them? What are we [00:10:30] putting in their space? Right? And then we're suddenly, oh, we're bringing sympathy, which can feel smarmy. And not authentic and has us doing a lot of heavy lifting and relationship rather than, again, super supportive, boundaried communication with them. [00:10:50] Michelle: Yeah. It's also really hard when you have the person who is either dealing with a disability who can't do the things that they [00:11:00] once used to do. And their partner. is very supportive and happy to have their back during this time, but the person who's on the couch, let's say, has all of these judgments and criticisms about what it means to not be able to go to work, right, or to take care of their partner. [00:11:28] They've made meaning. [00:11:30] Around like their, their identity is so tied to work, right? And it's like, how do you encourage that person to think about this in a different way and to make sense of it and to realize that you could choose to think about it in a way that actually might make you feel better about [00:11:56] Tracey: yourself. [00:11:57] I think it comes back to really great self [00:12:00] awareness and a great sense of responsibility. For noticing where we're kind of like shooting things across there and having our partner be responsible for them, like, Did you just look at me weird? And the work internal for that individual, the one that's lost their job or has huge debt or hid their debt from their partner, How can they begin to take those baby steps forward? [00:12:23] And how can I actually include my partner in this? What role might they play right in supporting [00:12:30] me? What do I need to hear from them every morning or every time I'm afraid to open my Visa statement or whatever it is, you know, how do I put them in a position where I could hear them as supportive? [00:12:49] Michelle: Do you feel stuck not understanding what's holding you back from having a pleasurable sex life? You're not alone. That's why I created the Unlearning [00:13:00] Sexual Shame module, inspired by the stories of countless clients who've struggled silently. This online module is going to give you a path out. Discover the roots of shame, embrace mindfulness to break free from its spiral, and redefine your sexual story with our 14 videos, interactive prompts, as well as a workbook to guide you along the way. [00:13:27] This module is perfect for [00:13:30] integrating into your own personal therapy or as a journey of self discovery. It's a tool designed to empower you, transform your To feel lighter, free from the shadows of shame. Your next chapter of empowerment, confidence, and sexual freedom is waiting. Join us at Get Some and let's begin the journey of unlearning sexual shame together. [00:13:56] Now, back to the episode.[00:14:00] [00:14:03] Tracey: Sometimes [00:14:04] Michelle: I have clients that are coming to see me for individual therapy and we're talking about something else. But then information comes to light about finding out that their partner had a secret credit card or that they racked up a lot of debt and for them, it's akin to an affair. There are a lot of parallels between what it's like when a partner finds out about another lover and what it's like [00:14:30] when a partner finds a secret credit card bill. [00:14:32] It's not that different. [00:14:35] Tracey: It really isn't. So, and I think it's important that, again, a couple have these great conversations which is, what do you consider emotional infidelity? And do you even believe in the term emotional infidelity? So it doesn't have to be a racked up credit card, it could also be racked up savings which can lend itself to great mistrust, especially if the [00:15:00] individual has had the other one on the receiving side who just discovers this. [00:15:05] Maybe they've experienced loss in the past where they've been suddenly left. The automatic might be to Are you planning on leaving me? How dare you? We can come at it guns a blazing, like, How dare you stockpile this money and I just found out? Or we can actually say, Hey, I actually just discovered, quite by mistake, this RSP [00:15:30] statement. [00:15:31] And I wanted to bring it to you. First of all, I'd like to have this open conversation with you and being responsible, like we're human. It's okay to feel immediate betrayal. So I want to share with you as we travel in this conversation, I'm really triggered. I'm going to do my best to stay flat and grounded because I'm really truly open, but just know my heart is aching and I'm scared. [00:15:59] So [00:16:00] you can hear really adult languaging, staying over here in the I land, being the discoverer, even though your heart's racing, your stomach's pounding, right? It's like, and being open to discovery about it. Because again, remembering, like, why does someone lie? Usually they're afraid. Of how it might be to even simply tell the truth. [00:16:22] So sometimes people are hiding great things once they enter the conversation. If their partner is willing to do [00:16:30] the work with them, it's like, Oh, that actually wasn't so scary. I recognize that, you know, lying is a trade I learned early because of a past scary experience. I learned to lie because it wasn't safe for me to share or tell the truth. [00:16:47] And then we can own that. I'm so sorry for bringing that into this new relationship with you. One of the ones, things I'd love to work on is moving forward. Not that [00:17:00] open, transparent, and I'm going to struggle, right? We don't become experts in it overnight. With practice, with each other. When we stay in relationships, and we are willing to have those deeply vulnerable, scary moment conversations, which, if we look at affairs, or hiding things, emotional infidelity of any kind, we can look at the immediate before the [00:17:30] infidelity occurs, there is opportunity in that first moment where you're like, man, you know, my partner's craving for sex has diminished greatly that we could actually have a conversation. [00:17:44] Hey, honey, I noticed that we're mismatched in terms of our desire for sex these days. And how do we want to proceed with this? You know, what are some things that we can do so that we're both satisfied? [00:18:00] Oh man, there's so much opportunity for a deeper level of intimacy in that initial conversation. But it's scary, right? [00:18:09] How [00:18:10] Michelle: would someone come clean about a racked up credit card that their partner doesn't know about? And they want to bring it up, right? How point in the journey that we're talking about. How would [00:18:30] somebody bring that up to [00:18:33] Tracey: a partner? By bringing it up. And so, and here's what I want to say about that for the person that's coming clean, right? [00:18:44] Is that first examine your own And if you can look at what is the thing that is stopping me from bringing it up, what's the work I need to do over here, you know, [00:19:00] to be okay with whatever amount of, you know, debt I have on that credit card. What do I need for me in order to be okay with that? And then it's sit with your partner, you know, find a time where you both can sit. [00:19:23] Relax. It doesn't have to be a, you know, horrific environment. Also, you know, set it [00:19:30] up. You don't want to be creepy about it and, like, booby trap them. Now [00:19:33] Michelle: that you've had a couple of drinks, I'm just gonna lay this [00:19:36] Tracey: on you. Right. Not that. Don't booby trap them. But, you know, obviously if they're rushing out the door to work or whatever, it may not necessarily be the time. [00:19:45] Or when other people are around, you know, it's like Strengthen numbers for the person who's about to reveal it. Don't do that. That's not fair. Set up the situation so that you have ample time to talk it out and put yourself in [00:20:00] the best situation possible. This is an opportunity for that individual who's going to share the news to actually come to terms with. [00:20:10] And take the first step, really, truly, to overcoming their shame, is to speak it out loud. When we speak it out loud for ourselves, we're releasing the hold that thing has on us. Can [00:20:28] Michelle: you give an [00:20:30] example of what that shame could look like in the conversation that they have in their mind? [00:20:40] Tracey: Yes, so I want to share something with you and sometimes people are good at just blurting the big thing out. [00:20:52] I have 80, 000 in credit card debt. I have been hiding [00:21:00] this and the ways that I've been hiding it are, and then you might give some examples of how that shows up in you. I raced to the mailbox before you get home when we're booking hotels for trips. I let you. [00:21:22] And so, there will be little ways that these things actually show up in the relationship that give actually [00:21:30] clues. So, again, you don't want to be in the position of looking for those and making up assumptions about your partners. But, as the individual who, As again, really examining, how do I show up? How is this credit card affecting me? [00:21:44] What are some of the traits, ways, and behaviors, ways of thinking that someone might be able to spot if they were watching me? What are [00:21:54] Michelle: three things people can do To build a better [00:22:00] relationship with [00:22:02] Tracey: money. First of all, examine your current relationship with money. I think that's harder to do than most people actually think. [00:22:15] They're like, Oh yeah, I've got a great handle on my money, or, Ah, that debt'll clear. But to really look at it, you know, What is your experience with money? What are you uncomfortable with? What are you comfortable with? So that's the first [00:22:30] step, is to be really willing to look. You know, what are some common misconceptions I have about money and even looking at, look, there's no shame in saying, oh, I find it super sexy. [00:22:42] I look for things like Ferraris and large houses, like it's okay to own that part of you, right? Where we want to actually dive into that is really looking at if these things were to [00:23:00] disappear, what do I actually love about the being of this person? We see some really successful relationships there, where they love each other implicitly for exactly as they are, rather than all the stuff. [00:23:16] What is the way of being that that individual is demonstrating when they pay for something? By the meal or no, no, no, I'll get that. It's on me this time actually, [00:23:30] what we're probably speaking to more is the sexiness of You know Contribution. So again when a couple can identify What is that way of being that person is exhibiting that I'm so drawn to Ah, it's compassion or it's contribution or it's love or that really to those fundamental ways of being, then you can actually cultivate that [00:24:00] regardless of whether it's meals or can it be replaced with food. [00:24:04] Bye. Bye. I brought you breakfast in bed. Can it be replaced with, I shined your shoes? Creativity. [00:24:15] Michelle: Creativity. About being, being creative around creating a similar dynamic scenario. [00:24:23] Tracey: Totally. Totally. So we had our first one and probably that's the second one, right, is that [00:24:30] creativity? And I think there's, you know, Like three steps don't necessarily have to be the same three steps for all, there's, I have it that there's no formula in couplehood, right, partnership, so I think being willing to have the scary conversations, yes they are scary, but there is a lot that you'll learn about yourself and your partner when you have them, and this includes when you first begin dating, [00:25:00] have those scary conversations early. [00:25:03] Michelle: If you just started dating somebody and you wanted to start talking about money early in their relationship, what is a non threatening, engaging, safe way of asking [00:25:17] Tracey: about it? I think looking at identifying your secret single behavior. So before you begin dating even, you can look at what are the things that I do on my own that I'm unwilling to [00:25:30] share with anyone at this moment. [00:25:32] Maybe even my bestie around money, right? So because we all have these weird things about money that even with our besties Unless they're you know, my line of work and potentially yours like coaches share everything unless they're your financial planner Early in dating be yourself with my wife We had ten questions that we're scared to ask each other and [00:26:00] this was some of our early first conversations And we went away and did our own answering of the questions. [00:26:08] And then, I believe it was when we met up face to face that we shared the answers with each other! It was super vulnerable and terrifying. But you know, here's the deal is that, like, I honestly, I have a ring that actually says, True Love Waits. What I mean by those three words is that, The [00:26:30] individual that is most likely to stick by you. [00:26:34] We'll stick through stuff and why not learn that early and be willing to I think you know We get so scared to be lonely alone in the world, right? It's like that we'll latch on to someone that isn't a great fit for us and it's okay to travel alone I traveled alone in the world for a long period of time and Faced [00:27:00] loneliness and came to terms with that. [00:27:03] I'm glad I traveled through it to get to the other side where I was like A OK to be alone. But that willingness to have those tricky conversations early in dating so that you can experience even, how are they going to be with me? Because what we're doing is, little by little, we're building foundation with each other. [00:27:25] And you don't have to come in and be like, That's a deal killer! You [00:27:30] just raised your eyebrow when I disclosed that I had debt. Right? It's like, we want to just be in step with each other. Oh hey, I noticed you just had a big reaction. How is it for you that I share that I have big debt? And be willing to hear the answer. [00:27:46] They're sharing something vulnerable, right? It's like, oh yeah, I totally reacted. Yeah, that comes from old stuff. Can you imagine having that conversation on your first couple of dates? I think it would [00:27:59] Michelle: [00:28:00] make me want to have sex with them. Right? I, I find those conversations very sexy. Agree. It's like [00:28:09] Tracey: foreplay. [00:28:10] It is so interesting that closed Relationship between sexual tension that's exciting and you're like super turned on and disclosing, like the adrenaline that goes when disclosing these things. Oh, [00:28:27] Michelle: wow. Okay, I'm gonna sit with that [00:28:30] one. Totally. Tracy, thank you so much. No one can really see me, but I've pretty much given myself whiplash while I've been talking to you. [00:28:39] Just like nodding, nodding, nodding, nodding, nodding. Thank you so much for being here. [00:28:46] Tracey: Oh, thank you. Where can people find you? Just simply www. TracyBurns, Tracy with an E Y B U R N S, very Scottish, dot com. I'm also on Insta, although [00:29:00] I tend to be off social media a lot these days and really working on my website and the community there, so. [00:29:06] And you'll find my email. I'm very approachable. [00:29:09] Michelle: Can you speak about your [00:29:10] Tracey: community? Yes. So, I didn't want my groups out on Facebook or, you know, I didn't, I wanted to hold all of my community in a psychologically safe way. And so I created my own community on my website. Um, Everyone has an interview with me before they become a [00:29:30] member of it, so we can share philosophy and make sure that we're a good fit for each other. [00:29:35] Maybe have some of those vulnerable conversations that you and I have been speaking about that's a cornerstone of good relationship. And once we have that, then you're invited into the community and we Share all kinds of ideas and talk amongst membership there and you can, you know, be a silent observer if you are that kind of individual and bring great questions and I [00:30:00] will meet face to face via zoom on monthly calls for those folks. [00:30:04] Michelle: It's for coaching and [00:30:05] Tracey: consulting. True. I always bring a coaching lens. To those conversations and provide insight and reflection. So in that first interview I have with folks who are thinking as to whether they might be a good fit for the membership, because obviously you have to choose us also, we'll explore some of that, you know, in terms of what their needs are to feel safe. [00:30:28] Will they become a silent [00:30:30] observer or will they be someone who actively participate, et cetera, et cetera. So we get into and purpose. You know, what would you utilize in a community such as this? We have some great powerful members on there and we have a lot of fun and there's always privacy too if that's required. [00:30:48] Michelle: And that's the Caring Network. [00:30:50] Tracey: It is and you can find it by simply visiting my website. [00:30:55] Michelle: Amazing. Thank you, Tracy. [00:30:58] Tracey: Thanks for having me. It's always [00:31:00] fun with you. [00:31:04] Michelle: Thanks to Tracy for being my guest today. Be sure to check out Tracy's website at TracyBurns. com. That's Tracy spelled with an E. This show is produced by Katie Jensen at Vocal Fry Studios. If you have show ideas or questions you want me to answer in an episode, email me at michelle at getsome. ca and don't forget to follow me on Instagram at getsome underscore podcast.[00:31:30] [00:31:30] You'll get insights on sex and sexuality, dating tips, and behind the scenes content between episodes. Our first online learning module called Unlearning Sexual Shame is out now. It's designed to help you to begin understanding and unpacking the root cause of sexual shame. Go on our website at getsome. [00:31:52] ca to learn more. Thanks for listening. See you [00:32:00] later.