We're excited to share a recording of the Sex in Space podcast interview with Andrew Gurza and Heather Morrison, co-founders of Handi. Handi makes sex toys designed by and for disabled people. The mission behind Handi is that everyone should be able to ‘get off’. Listen in to hear about how Handi came to be, the hands on research behind Handi and how the bendable, flexible design of the Bump'n Joystick has revolutionized the accessibility of pleasure for all.
We're excited to share a recording of the Sex in Space podcast interview with Andrew Gurza and Heather Morrison, co-founders of Handi. Handi makes sex toys designed by and for disabled people. The mission behind Handi is that everyone should be able to ‘get off’. Listen in to hear about how Handi came to be, the hands on research behind Handi and how the bendable, flexible design of the Bump'n Joystick has revolutionized the accessibility of pleasure for all.
Show Notes:
[00:00:17] Introducing the Sex in Space podcast trio and their mission to create a space for discussing sex across all dimensions. [00:00:46] Interview introduction for Andrew Gurza, a queer, disabled porn star who creates sex toys for people with limited hand movement. [00:01:15] Discussion on consent and disabled people's experiences with touch.
[00:01:46] Transition to Andrew Gurza's interview.
[00:03:12] Lack of recognition of disabled people as sexual beings and the need for education in this area. [00:04:00] Discussion on the struggle for disabled people to achieve sexual pleasure on their own.
[00:04:30] Lack of products specifically designed for disabled people's sexual needs.
[00:05:00] Introduction to Handi, a company creating sex toys for disabled people.
[00:05:34] Andrew and Heather Morrison, co-founders of Handi, discuss their journey and the origin of the company.
[00:06:28] Heather and Andrew's frank conversation that led to the idea of creating sex toys for disabled individuals.
[00:08:00] Handi's name as a playful way to reclaim the term "handicap" and address the needs of people with hand limitations. [00:08:59] The decision to write a book to share experiences and educate about sex and disability.
[00:10:00] Launching Handi as a brand during International Masturbation Month.
[00:10:39] The process of creating the book "Sex and Disability."
[00:11:00] Andrew Gurza's Journey as a Disability Consultant
[00:11:00] Andrew's transition from seeking a traditional job to becoming a freelance disability consultant. [
00:11:23] Andrew's early work as a disability speaker, writing articles on queerness and disability. [00:11:57] The impact of Andrew's photo shoot for a gay magazine on challenging perceptions of disability and sexuality.
[00:13:00] The relevance of disability stories to both disabled and non-disabled individuals.
[00:14:00] Andrew's experience reading the book "Sex and Disability" and the roller coaster of emotions it evokes. [00:15:00] The relatability of the book's stories despite different disabilities.
[00:15:39] The impact of the book on changing perceptions and educating about disability and ableism.
[00:16:00] Discussion on Differences and Similarities:
[00:16:00] The duality of being the same and different when it comes to sexuality.
[00:16:31] The importance of sharing experiences and representation in breaking down societal barriers.
[00:17:13] The bravery and confidence gained through representing disability and sexuality in media.
[00:18:00] Andrew's journey as a freelance disability consultant and speaker.
[00:18:29] The global impact of Andrew's work in challenging perceptions of disability and sexuality.
[00:19:00] Handi's Sex Toy Development Process
[00:19:00] Collaboration with University to validate the need and create concepts.
[00:19:48] Testing concepts with occupational therapists and the disabled community globally.
[00:20:59] Sending 10 prototypes to testers for feedback and collaborative refining of the design.
[00:21:18] Continuation of testing and validation as they move toward the launch.
[00:31:19] Heather and Andrew discuss the huggable nature of their sex toy design, which allows for increased intimacy and positive emotional responses in both disabled and able-bodied individuals. They talk about how it breaks the negative cycle of anxiety for people with hand limitations, preventing worries about fatigue or inability to orgasm.
[00:31:48] They mention that some users found comfort in the huggable nature of the toy, which helped them overcome anxiety and negative thoughts during self-pleasure.
[00:32:22] Heather shares that the design process debunked their assumption about gender preferences in sex toys. They realized that men who thought they didn't like vibration hadn't actually tried it and found that vibration could be a better option for those unable to get an erection.
[00:33:00] They discuss the importance of involving disabled people in the design process and how this approach led to unexpected positive consequences in their design.
[00:36:23] Heather talks about their plans to have a range of different toys and products to cater to various needs in the market. [00:39:00] Andrew explains how their design provides a comforting, emotional experience beyond just sexual pleasure, leading to a deeper understanding of pleasure-based sexuality.
[00:43:41] They discuss other companies in the market working on sex toys for disabled individuals, such as Hot Octopus
[00:45:11] Andrew shares the importance of communication, consent, and sense education for disabled individuals, especially when dealing with doctors, medical professionals, and caregivers.
[00:48:00] They discuss the lack of education around sexuality for disabled teenagers and the need for parents to have open and honest conversations with their children about their bodies and desires.
[00:53:00] They emphasize the significance of communication, especially for disabled individuals who need to navigate intimate conversations about their bodies and needs.
[00:57:13] The interview concludes with thanks and recommendations to check out Handi's website, book, and podcast.
Check them out on social media:
AndrewGurza_ on all social channels:
Websites:
AndrewGurza.com
https://getbumpn.com/ to find the Bump'n Joystick and their Book:The Bump'n Book of Love, Lust & Disability )
Andrew also has award winning podcast of his own, called Disability After Dark that won gold in the Outstanding Adult Series at the Canadian Podcast Awards.
Make sure to check out Sex in Space on all major podcast platforms. For more information about Sex in Space visit www.sexinspace.com
Reminder to check out our book, available at sexinspace.com/book or simply search for "The Organ Education Forgot" on Amazon.
INTRO MUSIC
[00:00:00] Michelle: My name's Michelle Fischler, and this is GETSOME
[00:00:17] We interviewed the trio from the Sex in Space podcast, whose mission on earth is to create a space for people to talk and learn about sex across all of its dimensions. Today we're sharing an amazing interview that they did with Andrew Gerza. Andrew is a queer, disabled porn star who also has a company making sex toys for people who have limited hand movement.
[00:00:46] Having Andrew on this show is really exciting to me. I've watched Andrew present. He's wickedly funny. He fucking calls people out. And I've always been captivated by the [00:01:00] strength and the advocacy and the humor that he puts behind his belief that disabled people are sexual beings. One important thing I took from this interview was the conversation of consent.
[00:01:15] Andrew: When you're disabled, you have a lot of people touching you, whether it be family members or medical professionals. And he really advocates for. Medical professionals to ask or inform somebody who's disabled, where they are going to be touching them. And by having them ask you for consent, it'll give you a better idea of what is consensual touch versus what is non consensual touch.
[00:01:46] Here's Andrew Gerza on sex and space.
[00:01:52] INTRO: Sex, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the speculative interdimensional vehicle, [00:02:00] Sex in Space. Its mission, to explore new points of view. To seek out fresh opinions. To boldly go where so many have gone before. and still somehow managed to totally miss the point.
[00:02:16] Subscribe to Sex in Space, wherever quality podcasts
[00:02:31] Tim: Here continuing to explore sex across all of its infinite dimensions. I'm here with fellow co conspirator today, our researcher, Dr. Jane Cherrington. Uh, we've decided to unshackle you and let you loose on some of our guests for this season. Here's some research for us.
[00:02:45] Jane: I do. It's about, um, disability and sexuality, basically. Um, a billion people in the world, that's about 15% of us, have some form of disability. And when you do the research [00:03:00] and look at how things are working for people in that world... Um, there's a, a shed load of stuff around how people are seen, how society looks at people with disabilities
[00:03:12] and, um, doesn't recognize people as having, um, a sense of sexuality. It tends to position them as asexual, or in some cases, hypersexual. More asexual, as in, it leads, desires, overlooks the fact that there might be anything to discuss. So, not only is there a gap in education, um, which there is, like the rest of us, except it's much bigger.
[00:03:44] Um, you've also got people who aren't having conversations. about their sexuality, even with those who care about them most sometimes, because it's just not considered as a thing. Culturally, just not out there. And so, um, one [00:04:00] study, uh, that was done by some people we met. found that over 50% of the physically disabled people they surveyed struggle to achieve sexual pleasure on their own.
[00:04:10] And the point of that is that there are a bunch of people who have a disability that means they can't self pleasure, can't masturbate, because they don't have hand dexterity, or they don't have hand strength, for whatever reason. They don't have the ability to achieve sexual release. So, That's a even bigger gap.
[00:04:30] It's like layers of space here to address. Yeah, and incredibly What they also found is that there were no products that had been specifically made to meet the needs of this community and that With that in mind, well, yes But but you know in this amazingly technologically advanced world in which we live when you've got people inventing things that you can experience sexual pleasure remotely through your computer you think somebody might have had a little think here because [00:05:00] There's an awful lot of people we're talking about, and 90% of the people they surveyed said they wanted such a product.
[00:05:06] So... We found and today talked to the wonderful team that decided to do something about it.
[00:05:16] Tim: Yep, that's right. Heather Morrison and Andrew Gerza are the co founders of Handy. H A N D I. Handy are literally making sex toys designed by and for disabled people. Handy was started with the belief that everyone should be able to get off and they're on a mission to put sexual pleasure within everyone's reach.
[00:05:34] Andrew: They unpack their fascinating origin story, their research and their fantastic first cab off the rank toy, the handy joystick. It's a great chat and an awesome way to kick off season two. Let's climb on in.
[00:05:58] Jane: I'm going to jump right into [00:06:00] a phrase that was used yesterday because it seems to me to be an interesting kind of anchor point to explore from around your world and what you do. Um, that working together, um, apparently came about as a result of a frank conversation. And I was wondering if you, um, remember that conversation and what triggered it and what set this journey together in motion.
[00:06:28] Yeah.
[00:06:28] Andrew: So, so Heather had seen a video that I had done, a documentary that I was in, and that was a light bulb moment for her understand. My experience of not being able to self pleasure and then I had gone, I was in Australia visiting her and we were on the beach having brother and sister time and we were just talking about things, talking things through and we were talking about my work in sex and disability and the work that I do and the conversation continued and she said, [00:07:00] well, what kind of toys do they have for disabled people?
[00:07:04] Don't they have toys for you? And I, yeah. Kind of said, well, not really. None of the toys on the market work for me. And I, I explained that my, you know, to be able to use a regular on the market toy involved dexterity. They had really small buttons. It was hard for me to, to use a toy like that. And I showed her my hand and said, look how hard it is for me to like hold something as simple as like.
[00:07:32] You know, something small. So imagine trying to hold a toy in place to self pleasure. It's just not something that I can do. And then, so we kind of kept talking about it and then very naively and playfully she was like, well, do you want to make one? And I remember being like, uh, I don't know if I, if I want to, if I want to make a toy with my sister, but the more and more we talked about it, I realized that it was, it was something that [00:08:00] would impact the world.
[00:08:03] Yeah, we went back, we went back home to our respective homes and did some research and found that 92% of the people that we interviewed. That we surveyed to see if a toy like this would be something they wanted, 92% said yes. Wow. So we realized that with numbers like that, it wasn't just about making a toy for Andrew to sell pleasure.
[00:08:26] It was actually something that could have been probably a lot weirder. Yeah.
[00:08:33] Yeah. Yeah. That's still cool. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's something that, you know, had you asked me five years ago, would I be making a sex toy with my sister? And I'm sure Heather can, can attest to the same. Would you be making a sex toy with your sibling? We both say, Oh no, no, but it's something that I think, you know, because we're brother and sister, we can have.
[00:08:59] really [00:09:00] frank conversations about it that aren't weird, that aren't strange. I mean, we're, we're so used to talking about it as a team now. Yeah. Both of us were just like, Oh yeah, we do a brother and sister sex play thing. And people are like, what? Whoa. But it's, you know, something that I think makes the brand even that more fun and even that more unique.
[00:09:20] Yeah. Um, and the name is great. Um, as a brand. Yeah, we're, we're quite pleased with it. It's an amalgamation, well, it's two things. It's an amalgamation of our names because Heather and Andrew is so handy, but also, and more importantly, it's, it's a name that is, is taking back the word handicap, which once had, and does still have kind of a negative connotation to it and a negative history.
[00:09:51] So we were like, well, let's play with that. Let's make it really playful. And because we're dealing in something also that. You know, we're dealing with people with hand limitations. [00:10:00] It really, the name carries a lot of weight within our community. And so we thought it was a fun and playful way to, to talk about what we're doing.
[00:10:13] Tim: That's brilliant. Um, in the timeline of, of your, you know, Coming together to decide to do this when when did the book come about
[00:10:26] Heather: the book came about last year. So we've probably been on the journey. Um, uh, we've been working on this for just a little over two years. Um, we launched the brand last May. So May is international masturbation months.
[00:10:39] Um, and so it's a really good marker for us to talk about stuff. Um, because, um, It's a time when the world is finally starting to celebrate self pleasure as part of holistic self love. Um, and it's also within that time when there's a big portion of the population who's being told to just, you know, give yourself a hand and [00:11:00] literally millions, hundreds of millions of people around the world are like, yeah, cool.
[00:11:02] We can't, um, good one. And so for us, it's a really good opportunity to bring that topic about. Um, so we launched the brand in May. Um, and we knew that we're probably going to be realistically not launching the toys for another year to a year and a half, which is a very long period of time to be telling people that you're working on something, um, and keep people interested in growing the brand.
[00:11:23] And we also realized from doing so many conversations and, um, like product conversations and just talking to the community, just generally that there was, um, a big need within the community to kind of have their experiences shared. within the realm of sex and disability and that not having that representation was actually causing quite a bit of like shame and isolation in the community itself and also perpetuating this kind of separation from the rest of society and just general misperceptions within able bodied people as well.
[00:11:57] And so I think everything we've [00:12:00] done in this. In this on this journey has been with some naivety. I think I think I think in order to be an entrepreneur, maybe that's part of what you need to have. Um, but we said, you know, there's so much there's so much conversation that that needs. a place to live, maybe we should write a book.
[00:12:17] And it was really as, um, kind of not unconsidered, but it was just kind of, you know, we should write a book. Um, and then the more that we kind of dug into that, the more that we realized actually how important this book could be. Um, and, um, the more that we worked with the disabled community, um, and the rest of the team, um, at Handy to sort of pull it together, the more responsibility we all felt, to actually do it justice, to bring it to life, because Um, the stories that people were sharing with us and the artwork and the accounts that people were giving to us of their own lived experience, um, was just so incredibly, um, beautiful and raw and funny.
[00:12:55] And then sometimes all of those things together, um, that we just wanted, we wanted to do it [00:13:00] justice and bringing it to the world. But it was one of those things, yeah, where it was like, yeah, let's write a book. And then the more we got into it, the more we realized actually, um, how important, um, that project actually was.
[00:13:12] Tim: I mean, I'll be honest, I'm only, I'm about two hours in, I'm reading it, I'm reading the ebook version, I'm a couple of hours, a couple of hours in and I, I don't know what I'm going through at the moment, uh, maybe I'm going through something, but I'm finding it really, I like, it's like a roller coaster of emotions for me, it's, it's, it's brilliant, it's really, I'm really loving it, um, I found it, um, just an amazing, uh, insight into what seems like a very, like, such, such a human set of experiences, um, in a way, like identity, you know, coming together, coming to terms with sexuality, your own sexual preferences, [00:14:00] um, body image, and, and all of, all of these kind of things, and, and and, and all of things.
[00:14:06] The struggles that we all have with things like, um, you know, confidence or, um, you know, all, all of these, all of these things. And it's just to sort of to read it and to, um, I don't know, even just take on board just some of the, some of the lessons for like myself as, as just the readers just been like, wow, this is, this is totally relevant for.
[00:14:34] Andrew: For me, and society more broadly. I mean, that's certainly the reaction that we wanted. We wanted non disabled people to read the book, even if they had no experience of disability, to read the book and feel like it also Was something for them. I mean, the goal of the book was really twofold. We wanted the disabled community to have a place where they could see their story told back to them and those stories could live [00:15:00] there and it could be a resource for them to feel not so alone, but also we wanted to allow for the.
[00:15:05] non disabled community to read the book and to confront some of their own misconceptions around disability and some of their own ableism that they maybe didn't have words for, didn't know how to talk about, and look at it in a way that didn't say you should feel ashamed for not knowing, but say, here's A resource for you to learn more from so the fact that you're saying that, you know, it's, it's eye opening to you and it's something you've not considered that's a good thing because it's going forward now you'll have those stories and consider things a little bit differently.
[00:15:35] So, so we're, we're excited because it totally met its target then.
[00:15:39] Heather: , I think like the other thing that was maybe an unintended consequence, but like, we probably should have seen it coming, but maybe didn't is that it's actually no matter if you're disabled or able bodied, it's incredibly relatable on so many in so many ways.
[00:15:51] So I think that's also kind of one of the other things that you were sort of touching on there is like, doesn't matter if you're if you live with a disability or something. You currently [00:16:00] don't because we're all humans and we all go through very similar emotional experiences, particularly as it relates to love and lust and sexuality.
[00:16:09] Um, obviously the disabled experience has its own, um, like specificities within it, but at the same time, we're all human and we all have very similar emotional experiences. And so when I was reading, I was like, I could relate to so many things and so many struggles I'd had around body image or. Coming to terms with different, like, pieces of my own personality and identity.
[00:16:31] And I think like the more we realize that we're actually not all that different, whether one of us has a disability or not, um, the, the more close we can become as a society. Mm-hmm. , we didn't, I don't think we're, any of us were insightful enough to realize that that's also one that they outlined. Um, but, but definitely reading it through, I was like, oh yeah, like , this is also me.
[00:16:53] And
[00:16:54] Jane: one of the things that sort of. Comes through what you just said before about, um, you know, we're [00:17:00] all the same, I guess, at some levels, that truth of, am I normal? Am I okay? Comes through in so much of every topic we go through, every, everyone we talk to. But the other side of it is, of course, that we're not all the same.
[00:17:15] And so it's, um, you, you were mentioning when we talked before that it's a journey of discovery from your end too. Um, with the people you've talked to. It'd be nice to hear how that felt to recognize such differences in the stories for yourself.
[00:17:37] Andrew: Um, I think, I think it as somebody with, with, you know, certain disabilities to read other stories of people with different disabilities and to understand that their experiences were different. The feelings of shame, the feelings of wanting to be confident in your body, wanting to be sexy, wanting to be loved.
[00:17:59] [00:18:00] wanting to be touched, wanting to access sexuality. Those were very similar. So while the experiences of disability may have been vastly different, the desire for connection and to be able to feel sexy and to have lust and to have love all around disability was very much the same. So again, reading the stories of different disabilities was great because you got to learn something new about how disability and chronic pain affected somebody.
[00:18:29] But you also saw, I saw touches of myself in the other, uh, in the other storytellers because I was like, Oh yeah, I want that too. I want to feel connected. I want to be told that I'm sexy. I want to be told that my disability isn't a problem, but it's an asset. I want all those things. And so I think reading those stories was a great lesson.
[00:18:52] And we cannot, we can be different in some ways, but same in a lot of other ways too. [00:19:00] Yeah.
[00:19:04] It sounds like it's been quite a journey for you both through this process. Were you working in the space of sexuality before, Andrew, before you started this work? Yeah, I've been working as a freelance disability consultant in specifically sexuality and queerness and disability for about just almost 10 years.
[00:19:27] So I finished school and I was like, Oh, I need a job. I guess I better make my own. I've been working kind of in this space as a freelance kind of speaker for the last, yeah, just about 10 years. So I have been, yeah. And so that was a, an interesting job to make for yourself. What, what led you to that? Well, I had finished school.
[00:19:48] I have a master's of legal studies from my college and I had been looking for work and I had been applying to government, you know, looking for government jobs, something to, that was really stable [00:20:00] because as we know, disability is very expensive. And being disabled is very expensive. So my mom and our family was like, well, you should get a good job because you have this education and if you get a good job, you'll be secure.
[00:20:12] And every time I would apply to these jobs, I wouldn't get them. And I would go out for interviews and I wouldn't get them. And I had, I had worked in, um, I had worked through college at a call center and doing like. A menial job just to make some money and I found even that experience of being in the nine to five world was very inaccessible with what my needs were just getting into work sometimes took two and a half hours.
[00:20:37] And then sometimes I'd have to leave the job because I'd have to use the bathroom and my, my disability device would malfunction and I have to go home. So just trying to do an eight hour shift was. Just becoming untenable. And so when I finished school, I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to get a good paying job where I can be accommodated.
[00:20:59] And I [00:21:00] went to a disability employment center here and I said, I want to be a speaker. And they said, Oh, that's a nice hobby. That's not a real job. Like you can't be, you can't be a disability speaker. That's not a job. And I basically was like, well, fuck you. I'm going to make it a job. So. I went on Vistaprint and put a card with my name on it and said I was a disability consultant.
[00:21:23] Um, not having any idea what that was and literally said, here's what I do now. Hire me. I guess this is what I do. And I just said, this is, these are the things I want to talk about. Um, and it kind of snowballed from there. Brilliant. That's so baller. I love it. Yeah, that's awesome. And so what was your first gig?
[00:21:43] Um, I did a photo shoot for a gay magazine in Toronto called Fab. They wanted somebody to be their cover boy of the month or whatever. And so I wrote in and said, do you have anybody who is a wheelchair user? And they of course said [00:22:00] no. And so I knew this. And so I was like, well, you should have me because you need diversity on your pages.
[00:22:05] And I totally milked that for all it was worth. And I had. A photographer come over and do a photo shoot and that went all over Toronto. And, and from that was kind of me kind of getting my feet wet. And then from there, I just called, emailed places like HuffPo and outlets saying, I have a story I want to share this with you.
[00:22:27] Can I write some articles about being queer and disabled? And they paid nothing. They didn't pay anything, but it was a way for me to get my name out there and start seeing if this is what I wanted to do. And, you know, those got a little bit of traction and those got people. On either side saying either they loved it or hated it, but at least then people knew that I was talking about queerness and disability in a way that I don't think anybody had really done before.
[00:22:50] I was very frank and very like outspoken to in order to make a name for myself. And so, from there I just said, you know, I want to talk to. to [00:23:00] universities. I want to go to sex education conferences. I want to do all this. And I just put myself in a path to go. And eventually, because of the stuff I had done, it picked up.
[00:23:11] And that's what I've been doing for 10 years now.
[00:23:16] Heather: And that's why when you Google his name, pretty much you'll find him with pictures of him in his leathers. Yeah, I did find that actually. That was a cool shot. Try to find one that's not. And how did you feel when you first saw those pictures as sister?
[00:23:35] Well, you didn't even tell me that you were, I don't even think you told me you were doing it. I think I just saw the magazine one day. Wow. Oh my God. And then somebody at my work, um, was like, is that your brother? Yeah. I don't think you actually mentioned that that was happening. Or if you did, you didn't make a big fuss about it.
[00:23:54] Cause I don't think, um, you probably didn't realize like how big it was going to go. But I think it ended up [00:24:00] being, it was Now Magazine, right? Yeah. Um, it was one of the first times that the disabled body had been represented in that way, not just with some of their clothes off, but in leathers, like fully sexualized.
[00:24:13] I'm not just like, Oh, I've got my top off, but like actually in a way that was like really. Forcing people to, um, reconsider their perceptions and like actually gaze on the disabled body with the perception of sexuality and sexiness. Um, and I just thought like, that was just so incredibly brave and, um, amazing.
[00:24:33] Um, and kind of hilarious, but it didn't weird me out. I just was like, wow, that's like really amazing. And I don't think any of us. realize the impact it would have, or like the sort of catalyst that it was, um, to the rest, sort of the rest of your, um, career and trajectory from there. Yeah, I certainly didn't expect it to be what it was.
[00:24:53] Andrew: And, and at that point, Heather and I, I think we had no plans to be doing what we're doing. So like, [00:25:00] I wouldn't have been like, hey, look at this like sex thing I did, family. Like I wasn't, like people saw it, but again, I had no idea that it would go where it went. So, yeah, yeah. But looking back on it, it totally makes sense now that we're doing this.
[00:25:14] Jane: Yeah. Has it made you braver about your own sexuality?
[00:25:21] Andrew: Doing stuff like that and doing photo shoots like that, I mean, I'm shy. I'm as, as bold as I am kind of in, in the work I do. I am very shy. I'm very like, awkward, even when, even though like my online persona and my public persona is like, yeah, sex disability is great.
[00:25:36] Like personally, I'm shy and I'm awkward. So like, I, I think doing something like that does make me braver because it forces me to look at my own body and realize that I, for myself, am a sexual being and that I deserve to be in these spaces too. And so, every time I do something like that, even though I'm, Totally shy and awkward during the whole [00:26:00] process of it happening.
[00:26:01] Like I remember doing that photo shoot and having to like, stand there in my leathers with, you know, all these photographers and try to look sexy, but I was freaking out, but to know that it's going to have an impact and it's going to be like. You know, it's going to go around the, around the world like that and have people see me still, you can Google that photo and see me in my leathers like now.
[00:26:22] So like, to know that it's going to do that and change the perception of disability around the world, like that's powerful. So it does, it does make me very proud to. be one of the first people to be as as involved in terms of disability as I am because you know medically I'm considered severely disabled so I'm very very very disabled so to be able to do that to show off my sexuality in that way as somebody who was told by the doctors like You know, you're just severely disabled.
[00:26:52] That's, that's who you are. That's it. So to be able to like, kind of give them the finger in that way and be like, look what I'm doing now, look what I'm doing. [00:27:00] I'm showing you all up and I'm awesome. So I think it does make me not braver. It makes me more confident in myself. I think. That's very cool. It is very cool.
[00:27:13] Yeah. And it seems like, as you say, you're very, you're at the forefront of this field with the work that you're doing,
[00:27:22] Jane: particularly working on making the sex toy together. I take it it's singular because at one point it was prototypes, plural, but there's now a singular toy coming out the other end. Yeah.
[00:27:36] So the way that we've done it,
[00:27:37] Heather: we, um, we partnered with RMIT University in Melbourne initially, um, they did some additional research for us to further validate the need, but also start to create some concepts, um, off the back of that, we had four lead concepts, um, that we really, really loved. Um, and that we could, it could have gone in any direction.
[00:27:54] And so we then tested those concepts with occupational therapists, as well as with, um, the [00:28:00] disabled community globally. So we did a bunch of, um, focus groups and one on one interviews, um, actually during lockdown the first time around, um, to understand. And the pros and cons of each of the potential designs, which ones we thought were going to work the best, et cetera.
[00:28:14] And we got them in front of as many people as we could. Um, and then from that, we distilled all of that feedback and we landed on one lead design. Like we knew we wouldn't be able to launch four designs at once. That would, my head would have exploded. We'd have to pick one and at least have our lead. Um, And so from there, we did have one lead design.
[00:28:32] We evolved that design further, continuing to sort of review with the community as well as our OTs. And then once we got that design evolved enough, we created really, really crude prototypes. So we created 10 prototypes, all of the same one. We sent that across. to 10 people who volunteered to be to be testers around Australia.
[00:28:54] And they basically over the course of about a month, tested it and then gave us [00:29:00] feedback directly to me directly to our design team. And we included And then we were working with, or we were working with on those calls as well so that was again just a really collaborative process, and really just pulling in everybody's different points of view perspectives and expertise and that's kind of the way that we've done this the whole.
[00:29:18] Every sort of step of the way is sort of testing. Um, and then valid, creating and then validating as we kind of move forward towards one singular product and then launch. So we are now just finalizing the design of the first toy. And then we'll hit pre sales within the next, um, aiming for September. Um, you mentioned that you learned a lot during the prototyping and as somebody who does design work anyway in your day job, um, what, what did you find you learned particularly about prototyping in this process?
[00:29:52] Yeah, I mean, I think anytime you get your designs and your stuff in front of the people who might be using it, you learn so much. It's so incredibly valuable. [00:30:00] It's also incredibly nerve wracking because you put so much of yourself and so much time into this and you believe in it. And like, it's, I'm always really, really nervous the first couple of Testing calls that we go through because like, what if everyone hates it?
[00:30:15] What if all the, all the negatives, but actually you want to uncover those negatives as much as you want to know why people love it. You want to know what do you hate about it? What's not working for you because right now, and in that instance, we were at a point where we could do whatever we wanted to with the design.
[00:30:29] We, we hadn't invested so much money in tooling or products or anything that we couldn't fundamentally change it. Um, if we needed to. Um, and so that was kind of, that was a big reason why we did the test. Um, and we did and why we created such crude prototypes to know that there might be some really fundamental things we need to shift here, and ultimately, there's no financial cost, and that's shifting any of those yes we spent time on this but so what if it's not right we can go back and change it.
[00:30:57] Um, and so we learned a lot, like we always learn, um, [00:31:00] so much. There was a lot of things that people loved. So the device is kind of like if a, um, body pillow and a foam roller had a love child, like it is quite large and it has a holster in the middle to be able to hold vibrators and sleeves, um, but it's also something that you hug into because that means we're transferring the reliance from fine.
[00:31:19] And motor skills in your hands over to gross motor skills and other body parts to be able to position things get things in control. And it's just a really natural allows people to hug on to think to it, and actually cuddle it and that's a really natural movement for everybody disabled people able bodied people and also as a Um, is a action that creates a lot of like emotional response in people from intimacy and positive feedback and also helps to get people who might be in their heads about things.
[00:31:48] So one of the things we heard from quite a few people was that they really loved the huggable nature because it was comforting it was increased intimacy, but also, and it kind of broke the negative. Um, cycle that [00:32:00] was going on in their head that was creating anxiety. So if you've got hand limitations, um, or you're used to your hands kind of giving out or getting tired before you're able to orgasm, um, or to feel pleasure, then what ends up happening is that during the act of trying to give yourself pleasure, you start to get in your head about whether or not you're actually going to be able to get where you're trying to go to, whether you're not going to be able to actually orgasm or just feel nice.
[00:32:22] Um, and what we heard back, which was. I think a really big, um, really important finding for us was because of the way that people were able to just hug into it and kind of position it and then let the toy do the rest of the work and take their hands out of the equation. It broke that negative cycle of anxiety for people around worrying that maybe they were going to get tired or the device would.
[00:32:42] slip or one way or another, something was going to happen or their disability was going to act up, um, that they weren't going to be able to orgasm or even just feel pleasure at all. Um, because they're so in their head. So that was, um, an unexpected positive consequence of the design, um, which we didn't [00:33:00] really see coming around that sort of anxiety cycle.
[00:33:03] Um, but which was also, I think, really, really interesting. I think the other, um, hypothesis or assumption that we went into this with, which was broken, um, which was really, actually really, really great, um, is that we kind of assumed we, we, we had this assumption that, um, we knew from prior testing that women preferred vibration over penetration.
[00:33:25] Um, if you could provide penetration too, great, but ultimately vibration was more important. Um, and for men, we had assumed that, um, Vibration was quite polarizing because we talked to a lot of people about vibration, and we found it to be quite polarizing. Like some guys were really into it. Some guys really weren't into it.
[00:33:43] And this round of testing actually debunked that assumption and that the people who, the guys who thought they were not into vibration actually hadn't tried vibration. Um, and so it actually wasn't so much that it was polarizing. It was actually more like, um, [00:34:00] that they just hadn't actually tried that sensation before.
[00:34:02] So they didn't. think that they would like it, which was a different finding to what we had before. So that actually opened us up to like reviewing what we offered, who we offered it to, and also understanding that while some guys really wanted a sleeve like device, something that they could penetrate, um, it wasn't a must have and that vibration for a lot of guys was actually going to be better because not everybody can get an erection.
[00:34:24] And so if you're providing something for, um, You know, males who that which is only penetrative that actually potentially leaving quite a few people out. Even though all of our stuff will be quite gender fluid, I think that was a really big assumption that we had going into it, which was completely busted.
[00:34:46] Off the other side. So there are a few things like that, but those are the two that come to mind. And what was great was that we had the design teams on all of these calls, all of the feedback calls. And so they were, you can tell a design team [00:35:00] things time and time again from stuff that you've heard. And they're an amazing team.
[00:35:04] They do listen, but it's It's way different than when you're sitting on a phone, actually on an interview with somebody, and you're actually listening to their voice and their emotion and their experience, telling you what's working, what's not working, and even afterwards, when we had our kind of regroup and huddle, the lead design Designer was like, Oh, my God, like, I know you've told us those things before and he's like, and I'm so sorry that we didn't listen to you.
[00:35:29] And I was like, well, you did, but like, now you've heard it from the horse's mouth. Like now you actually, now you understand why I kept banging on about, um, because you've heard it as much as I have now. Um, so it was just a really, I think, awesome experience, um, and just being able to have the. The design team and other people within the group on those calls, um, and hearing people's responses just gives you that much more understanding, makes the design stronger, um, gives you more empathy and also gives you like way, like so many different ideas as well.
[00:35:59] [00:36:00] Um, which is really cool. Like the design team's notepads at the end were absolutely filthy.
[00:36:07] Jane: Start of a big kind of trajectory for you both. I think, as you said, you can't do them all at once. Now, you've got to start with one, but I suspect that there's an opportunity to expand significantly as you go forward.
[00:36:23] Heather: Um, yeah, um, you know, we knew from like the beginning that, um, we'd never be able to have one toy that hit everybody's like disability and also everybody's sexual preferences.
[00:36:34] Like, both of those things are just such a massive range that trying to design for every everything in one go would have been impossible. Um, and so the plan is definitely to have a range of different toys, um, start to create new products off the back of them and also look at how we can. adapt small things or make things more accessible that we create, or even some of the things that are also already on the markets.
[00:36:59] So there's [00:37:00] a pretty, there's a, I think a massive opportunity the more you dig into this space, um, to do things for this market that then benefit this, this community, but also benefit everybody else as well. Completely.
[00:37:11] Tim: Yeah. Have you discovered a new genre of, of sex toys as well. Do you think during, during this, I mean, I've, I've heard a few, um, interviews with people disabled and otherwise sort of on how the, the sex toys that are out there on the market existing can be used in like a variety of different ways and people use them in different ways.
[00:37:31] And if it's like a internal, um, G spot stimulator, maybe they use that externally and, and different things, but, but it sounds like what you've hit upon is something I've never heard of before. This whole, you know, comforting, emotional, um, kind of thing sounds, sounds amazing. Sounds great. But, um, do you think you've, do you think you've found, found a new, um, genre of toy [00:38:00] in a way?
[00:38:01] I think
[00:38:02] Heather: I think we've definitely opened up the category of sex toys like I think Andrew coined this term disability driven design. And I think we definitely the way that we approach our design is based around people with different disabilities who can't currently access. Um, whether everything ends up being, um, including that sort of cuddle cuddly huggable nature.
[00:38:27] I'm not, I'm not sure yet. Um, but it has had like really, um, we always knew it was cool, but we did. I don't think any of us realized what extent it had a positive effect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:38] Andrew: We did an, we did an episode of our handicast, which is a podcast within the show that I produced. And so we did an episode with some of the testers.
[00:38:48] Last week, and they both said, you know, having the ability to cuddle this toy lessened my anxiety, made me feel better, made me feel more connected to my body, made me feel more connected to my [00:39:00] disability experience through pleasure, like we did, and I think we sort of knew that that was our goal, but again, to hear it from the horse's mouth was like, oh wow, we've hit on something, even in just the prototype, we've hit on something that's, that is huge and is, you know, It's so much more an emotional experience than just get your random vibrator from the store.
[00:39:22] We've hit on something that is gonna open up conversation around how to have different types of sex. How to have sex that's about pleasure based sexuality versus like, gotta get off, gotta finish. Yeah. But it's more about the, the, the experience of getting there than I gotta get to the destination of being done.
[00:39:43] So I think, um. Just hearing that from our testers in the, in hearing that from them as we were kind of doing it was like really impactful.
[00:39:55] Jane: I think it's really nice to to open up that space for people listening around how [00:40:00] much work goes into the design of such things, you know, it's a year and a half, you're saying so far.
[00:40:09] It'd be more than
[00:40:10] Heather: over two years. So we had that original conversation over two years ago. And then we started down the road of research and I think it's take it we look we could have probably had a toy to market way faster, but we've been really deliberate in making sure that we are actually. The last thing I want to do is put a toy on to market that doesn't actually solve the need and in order to make sure that that does solve the need, you need to do this design thinking process, you need to do testing, you need to get it in front of people, um, you need to take feedback on board, um, you need to do like the right research, um, and that just takes always way longer than you think it's going to, um, and just getting a product on board just takes Or into the world just takes way longer in general, I think, um, but then when you're actually trying to create something totally brand new, that's never been designed for before.
[00:40:55] It just ends up taking even longer than that. Um, and I [00:41:00] think if you had told us what our toy would look like at the beginning of this, like neither one of us could have ever imagined this is what it would look like. Um, it's so completely different to anything that's, um. That exists. And if you saw it in somebody's bedroom, you would definitely not be like, Oh, that's a sex toy.
[00:41:17] You'd be like, Oh, that's like a weird like foam roller or some sort of like weird accessible mobility aid device or something. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't look or like a cuddle pillow. It doesn't look like. Um, a sex toy in any way. And so when you, when you see other companies, um, you know, creating, uh, toys, they can get them to market really quickly because I think if you look back and, and even some of the pictures you sent through in preparation for this, um, this, uh, podcast, like show some of the older, um, like sex toys from back in the day, like from like, Eons ago, and they don't look that different to the toys that are currently on the market.
[00:41:55] Um, so there's not a lot of innovation in this space. It's starting to become more [00:42:00] innovative, but generally it's been sort of, um, a quick moneymaker on renovation and just sort of like really cheap.
[00:42:08] Andrew: Adaptable versus like creation. Yeah, so what they'll do is they'll take a vibrator and they'll put the strap on it, or they'll make it so that one type of disability, one type of, of hand limitation could use it or one.
[00:42:23] type of person with a disability could use the toy. And they'll take the same idea of penetrative toy and say, oh yeah, this is for all bodies or for everyone. But there's no, like Heather was saying, there's no innovation. There's no, there's no discussion of disability from ideation through to creation.
[00:42:41] So what Heather was saying earlier about, you know, the, the, The term we coin, which is disability driven design, which is really having disabled people from the beginning of the idea all the way through to the, to bring it to market. And so that's why I think what we're doing is different because from the beginning of Heather and I [00:43:00] sitting down and having the idea, we've had hours of phone calls of like, okay, so How do your hands work?
[00:43:05] Like what, how, how would this work for you? How would, how do you think the toys should look? And, you know, getting the input of not just me, other team members with disabilities and testers with disabilities to make sure that it's something that could actually be used by this community and to, to show that all the way through disability is at the forefront of what we're doing.
[00:43:30] Jane: Again, it's breathtakingly cool. Um, is there anybody out there that you've come across in the world doing anything similar? In your research? Yeah,
[00:43:40] so there,
[00:43:41] Heather: um, when we first started there was like a black hole of like basically nobody. There is a company out of the UK called Hot Octopus. And they've got sort of Pulse Duo and some really cool like tectronic technology that allows things the toy itself to move in an up and down motion.
[00:43:58] Um, and I think it was [00:44:00] designed originally around people with spinal cord injuries, um, to help increase sensation and movement for them. Um, but what we found in talking to people, other people with disabilities is that alt unfortunately didn't really overcome a lot of the barriers that were existing for people.
[00:44:15] So it still relied on a fairly significant amount of dexterity and hand mobility and movement. And actually a lot of people felt it. I got it out of the packaging. I think Andrew, you were one of them, let alone, um, get it on them. Um, and so it's a really cool device, but it didn't really, it didn't quite unlock the barriers that we were working on, or we had identified, um, since then.
[00:44:36] And more recently there is a company that, um, I believe is in Melbourne, um, called XCS products. Um, and they are also working on something, um, I think they've actually, well, I know that they have just released what theirs will look like, um, because I just got an email from them this morning. Um, so there are other people who are starting to work on it.
[00:44:55] Um, we're sprinting to be first to market. Um, but ultimately, [00:45:00] like when you look at the fact that there are so many people with this need in the market, like competition is not a bad thing. And there's definitely a room for, you know, more than one, um, more than one company that's. focusing on this. For sure.
[00:45:14] Yeah. Um, one of the things we talked about yesterday, um, was wanting to create the light bulb moment through
[00:45:22] Jane: these conversations for people to go, Oh, and one of the things that was in my head when you were talking before is how hard it is to be a teenager and to try to explore sexuality. And then how tricky this space is for parents of those teenagers with disability to consider how they might support that.
[00:45:44] And, um, this feels like a really important idea to take into that space for consideration, um, the work you're doing and the way you're doing it, and also, possibly for parents, the non threatening [00:46:00] nature of something that doesn't look overtly like a sex toy, that isn't the heteronormative, penetrative, Kind of like, right, we're into it, but it's actually about self pleasure and vibration on the body and orgasm as part of learning and discovery.
[00:46:15] Um, I guess I'm sort of saying all of that. I'm wondering, Andrew, what your thoughts are for parents who are wrestling with how to even start conversations with their teenagers?
[00:46:29] Andrew: Oh, uh, do we have like five more hours to have this, you know, unfortunately there's not a lot of education for sex education for disabled teenagers or their parents, because the only way we tend to talk about sexuality and disability if we do sex education around sex and disability is through risk.
[00:46:51] So all the parents will hear is if your child has an intellectual disability or physical disability, they're at a higher propensity to be abused, [00:47:00] which is true and those numbers are true, but unfortunately there's nothing really out there led by disabled people that says you can have great sex as a disabled person or a disabled teenager and have pleasure and I think parents need to like, I think, uh, My mom and our mom was different in the sense that she was very gung ho, she's very, she, her and I talk a lot about sex and disability and a lot of, like, her and I are very open.
[00:47:28] So our mom is, I think, a different case. She, she's, she's very, very free with those conversations. But I think for the average parent with a disabled kid, I think it starts with Even before they become a teenager, so many disabled children are touched by doctors and medical professionals, and OTs and PTs, just touched automatically because they need assistance, and they're touched without being asked, do you want to be touched?
[00:47:57] Is it okay for me to touch you now? So even before we [00:48:00] get into The sexual part, asking young disabled kids, Hey, this doctor is going to touch you, this PT is going to touch you. Are you okay with that? How do you feel about that? Is it all right? Starting with those conversations first, or like, you know, mommy and daddy have to touch you to help you do care.
[00:48:18] Like, starting with consent from a really young age, and getting them to understand that they need the help, and it's okay. Being given the opportunity to be asked, I think, is where we start. Before we get into, like, how do we talk to our teenager, our disabled teenager, about sex, um, when I was coming out of the closet at 16, I remember my mom saying to me after I came out, she said, you know, I'm really glad you told me.
[00:48:46] It's no problem. We love you. It's great. But then she also said, you know, it is going to be harder for you because of your disabilities. I remember her saying this to me, and she hasn't been wrong. It has been harder because of my disability because of the way people treat [00:49:00] disabled people trying to be sexual.
[00:49:01] So I think parents also having frank conversations with their, their disabled teenagers about how their disability will impact them in adulthood and not just doing the, not just having the run of the mill, birds and the bees. Here's how sex is going to work. Best of luck to you, but having conversations about, you know, here's how your disability might impact this, or did you have any questions about how your disability will play a role in this?
[00:49:31] And unfortunately, there are not many resources for parents of disabled kids to have that. So the hope is with Handy, you know, we can build an educational piece where we can also talk about those things for parents and for disabled youth to have more resources. I definitely feel another book coming on.
[00:49:50] Yeah. Like a hundred
[00:49:53] Jane: percent. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a gap. Yeah.
[00:49:58] Heather: And we realized it's like the, [00:50:00] this book, the first book kind of touches on that as well. And like a lot of. Um, we know that parents have purchased the book for their kids or, um, even some of the kids sort of, or early teens sort of asking about the book.
[00:50:14] Um, and, and it gives sort of a nice insight to, for both for parents to read to help them navigate some of those conversations and give them a slightly different understanding of what, um, their kids might be going through. And, but, and it also gives, um, kids a sense of, you know, I'm not alone in this, um, because one of the other things we found, um, Talking to a lot of people over the last few years is that unfortunately many people with disabilities are both systemically and culturally basically told from a very early age that they shouldn't be that they're not sexual that they're non sexual or asexual or, you know, you're disabled, you'll need to be in sex ed.
[00:50:52] And a lot of times, because sex ed is taught as a portion of physical education systemically. You're kind of removed from [00:51:00] even having the choice of whether or not you wanna participate in the, not that anybody's sex ed in school was like all that mind blowing. I think we all sat through the banana and the condom demonstration, but I think it, it, even, even if it's, you know, not really all that, even if everyone's jumping online to Google their own stuff later on, I think just being included within that is that it represents a much bigger.
[00:51:21] Um, factor, um, and says something to you, whether or not it's like, yeah, basically if you're excluded from that conversation, but you're also at the same time having sexual feelings, then that starts to where that rift starts to come in, or feelings of like uncertainty and shame of your own sexuality, and you're telling me I shouldn't be sexual because I'm disabled, but like I'm waking up every night with wet dreams, so like which one is it?
[00:51:44] It's quite confusing, um, and so like the more we talk to people, the more we also recognize that Within the sex ed perspective, there's a ton of content and work that needs to be done for all parties. I mean, it's not as if it's [00:52:00] an easy or straightforward subject. Anyway, there's multiple layers. And if you insert disability in there as well.
[00:52:11] Yeah, I imagine parents would find it quite, quite daunting. Oh yeah, I think also there are, you know, there are groups of people in
[00:52:21] Jane: society we look at and treat as if they were not sexual. I was talking yesterday about some work with people in eldercare, in res homes, and the fact that the work, a lady, Um, we spoke to Jane, she was amazing, and part of her job is first to remind people running rest homes that their residents are either having sex, thinking about having sex, um, or, or, um, not for some, but for most they are, and a policy around that might be quite helpful because nobody's even had the conversation.
[00:52:54] Um, you know, so there are whole swathes of society for whom we haven't even [00:53:00] started. Um, so I think this is a really beautiful place to start directly in that space of pleasure. And I love what you said, Andrew, sense education. Oh no, I said sex, but I like that. We can say that I said it. I thought I had sense education.
[00:53:20] I thought that was a beautiful term. We can totally attribute that to me. I'm confident. Talk it up on your own. Yeah. Well, I think for young children, sense education as part of sex education and what you're talking about in terms of what feels good. to me and is this okay with me? Um, yeah, it feels like a good place to start and a good call out.
[00:53:46] Andrew: Yeah, because I remember being a disabled child and going to multiple PTs and OTs and doctors and just letting them touch me because They were the authority figure and they were the doctor that was going to make whatever I was [00:54:00] there for better. So we didn't even think about, there was no question of consent because we just let them.
[00:54:07] But I think in our, in the world we live in now, just asking your disabled child, do you feel okay with this? I mean, and I always did, like everything was fine, but I think giving the child the option to say, I don't want to do this right this second. Let me give me, you know, two, five minutes to relax, to get comfortable with the idea of the stranger touching me.
[00:54:28] Because I think so many disabled people, when they enter the medical system or the PT system or the OT system, even as adults, because we've been touched as children without being asked, we just assume that it's okay and whatever they do is okay. And then, you know, something, something dangerous can happen where they can drop us or do something wrong.
[00:54:50] To us, it doesn't feel super great, and then we're left dealing with it. So I think talking to your disabled kid about what feels good will [00:55:00] give them a healthy start in adulthood. When they start exploring their sexuality and start being sexual, they'll know right off the bat what consent is, because they've been doing it since they were young.
[00:55:11] It's a massive topic. I think, um, the biggest, the kind of the meta topic across it all is communication and it's not something we're great at learning about how to describe pleasure to ask for pleasure to say if something's working or not. That's a human issue as well. I think that's part of the human condition for most of us.
[00:55:33] Yeah. And try to find ways to talk to each other. It's part of the gig. I think communication, we're, all of us, whether we're disabled or not, we're pretty shit at it. So, we have to do better. And I think one of the powerful things about being disabled is being disabled forces you to have really intimate conversations with people really fast.
[00:55:55] About your body, about your needs, about, so like, I think, Disabled [00:56:00] people that are the, are the leaders in this, in that aspect of communicating, because we know, we know how to do it every day in terms of care, in terms of our needs, in terms of all those things, we know how to be very direct about what our needs are, but it can be different when you're disabled and trying to access sexuality, because you want to be sexy.
[00:56:18] You want to be cool. You want to be like, you want to be viable and to be super communicative. Sometimes isn't how hot sexuality is portrayed. So it can be hard for us to, um, to be able to communicate because we want to, we want to emulate what we're seeing on screen, what we're seeing in movies, what we're seeing on TV, which is able bodied people not talking and having great sex.
[00:56:44] Well, they're probably not having great sex because they're not talking. That's true. Awesome.
[00:56:53] Well, this is great. Thank you so much. We look forward to talking again. Thank you. It was such a pleasure and we'd love to, [00:57:00] and if ever you want us back, we'll be happy to come.
[00:57:02] Tim: Lovely. Awesome. Perfect. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Nice to see you. Okay, thanks guys. Yeah. I really hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we did.
[00:57:13] If you want to check out more of Handy, you can head on over to thatshandy. co. That's thatshandi.com there you can register for their newsletter where you'll get updates about the toy and you can also buy their amazing book, The Handy Book of Love, Lust and Disability. They're also on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
[00:57:35] Just check out, that's handy. If you want to follow more of Andrew himself, you can check out his website AndrewGerza. com. That's Gerza G U R Z A. He's AndrewGerza underscore on all his social channels, and he also has an award winning podcast of his own called Disability After Dark. Recently won gold in the Outstanding Adult Series at the Canadian Podcast Awards.
[00:57:58] So give it a [00:58:00] listen. Once you finish doing all of that, and if you so desire, You can head on over to our Instagram or Facebook at sexandspace. com. That's sexandspace, D O T C O M. And flick us a follow. We'll not only let you know when our new pods are dropping, but we'll be treating you to some video clips and bonus content from our interviews too.
[00:58:20] Many, many thanks to Heather and Andrew for this one, to my co host Jane and to the wider String Theory team, and of course to you guys for making it all the way to the end. See you for the
[00:58:40] next one. If you found some of this material a little challenging, keep coming back and we'll make it really challenging.