The politics of sex in Mexico contradict its modern metropolis. I speak with Sexologist, Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano and Sex Therapist Dr. Maria de Lourdes Martínez Staines about how traditional religious and patriarchal belief systems in Mexico continue to reinforce the prevalence of gender based violence, incest, abortion access, and LGBTQ hate crimes.
The politics of sex in Mexico contradict its modern metropolis. I speak with Sexologist, Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano and Sex Therapist Dr. Maria de Lourdes Martínez Staines about how traditional religious and patriarchal belief systems in Mexico continue to reinforce the prevalence of gender based violence, incest, abortion access, and LGBTQ hate crimes.
Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano earned her Psychology Degree from Iberoamericana University in 2001. She completed her training in Gestalt Psychotherapy in 2006 and went on to complete her training in Bioenergetic Body Work in Buenos Aires Argentina. Selfa earned a Master's Degree in Sexuality and Gender Studies from Spain. She has experience working in mental health institutions and teaches in public and private universities throughout Mexico. Selfa also has a private psychotherapy practice working with individuals and couples.
Dr. Maria de Lourdes Martínez Staines studied medicine at Anahuac's University in the state of Mexico. She is married to Jorge Jimenez, a Pediatrician and Neonatologist in Aguascalientes, Mexico. She has 3 children, Sofi 29 years, Jorge Eduardo 23 years, and Regina 19 years. Lourdes worked for 17 years as the Reproductive Health Chief at the Health Institute in Aguascalientes. She also completed 2 Masters Degrees; one in Thanatology (The study of Death and Dying ) and the other in Sexuality and Gender. She has Doctorate in Humanist Psychotherapy. Lourdes currently teaches at Cuauhtemoc's University.
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[00:00:00] [Theme music]
[00:00:18] Michelle: The feminist movement in Mexico has been gaining traction in recent years. After several high-profile gender-based killings put a spotlight on a system of inequality and patriarchal domination. There are estimates that approximately 10 women die by femicide each day and these crimes go mostly unpunished.
[00:00:42] Michelle: I sat down with two outstanding activists, feminists, and sex therapists from Mexico to talk about how a culture of machismo continued to reinforce the prevalence of gender-based violence, incest, abortion access, LGBTQ hate crimes, and not surprisingly, sexual concerns. Please welcome Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano and Dr. Maria de Lourdes Martínez Staines to GETSOME.
[00:01:15] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: The kind of problems I see in my private practice are mostly women who are suffering in the couples because of the gender violence. We don't have many equality. Most of the people that come with me are women or girls or teenagers. And it's not because I don't want to work with men.
[00:01:45] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: It's because they don't come very often because they think also that's a woman matter. All the emotional work, all the personal development, it is more considered as a feminist work. So this is changing in the last years in Mexico. We have every year more men that they want to be involved, but it's not very easy.
[00:02:14] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: They feel it's not very masculine, very to try to talk about emotions.
[00:02:22] Michelle: And Lourdes, would you say that it's quite similar in your practice as well?
[00:02:27] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: The men that comes mostly are for sex therapy. Yeah, when they come is because they have sexual dysfunction. And they are crazy to get a cure because they think that they might lose their couple. They are ashamed. they feel like it is the end of the world because they have a sexual dysfunction I have a couple, and
[00:03:01] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: he came he came, no it wasn't a couple he came to tell me that he needed support because he just got married after four years and he couldn't make love because he couldn't have an erection and he thought that it was going to be the end of the marriage and he was very upset with the couple because she's spent more money in the wedding than the one he wills to do.
[00:03:35] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: So he had this discomfort and he could not talk with her about it. Yeah, it was a lot of pressure for him.
[00:03:45] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: In Mexico, we have a very interesting thing about the culture and the way it reflects in the sexuality. The way we construct our relationships between men and women. Right, Lourdes?
[00:04:00] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yes. Yes.
[00:04:02] Michelle: And I imagine to be a man also means to have a hard penis whenever it's necessary. I could see how it would be terrifying, right? Because there's not a whole lot of understanding around their own feelings and emotions and anxieties and how much that plays into it.
[00:04:28] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: I think that it is because they see themselves in separate ways. Like if the genitals are receiving an order from the brain, but they do not care about the emotions that they have. I had this couple also that he didn't want to have sex with her because she wanted to use bondage. And he wasn't aware that he didn't want to do it.
[00:04:57] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: He was scared, something that he thought it could be not only dangerous, but like a sin for him.
[00:05:07] Michelle: Right. I have a lot of women that struggle because their partner can't get an erection. And they feel that it has something to do with them. women also believe these stereotypes and if a man doesn't get an erection because he should always have a really hard erection, that it must mean that they're not attracted to them.
[00:05:37] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yes.
[00:05:37] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: there are a lot of expectations about it woman we we have to have some a kind of body skinny and we have to be young and also pretty and also in good mood Yeah, yeah. Because we are responsible, women, we are responsible about maintaining relationships.
[00:06:09] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: We are responsible of the emotional part in the relationship. We are responsible of almost everything. And we believe it. And we believe it. and we feel responsible also of the main attitudes
[00:06:27] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: when nothing to do with us.
[00:06:32] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: So all the construction about romantic love, all the reconstruction and how the relationships in love has to be, those beliefs support a lot of violence in many relationships. We cannot leave that couple because what I'm going to do being single, it's a failure to be single.
[00:07:03] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: All my value as a woman is because I have a man by my side. And all those beliefs are also our sexuality and our bodies and the way we feel as a woman. It's still in Mexico, probably.
[00:07:21] Michelle: No, it's not.
[00:07:23] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: It is sad, but it happens also that when a woman has cancer, breast cancer, at a surgery and they are going to lose the breast, their couple leaves them. They do not want to live.
[00:07:41] Michelle: Because they've lost a breast.
[00:07:43] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yes. Hmm. Hmm. So they have a fear that in some of them it is confirmed. It happens to a woman that they know.
[00:07:56] Michelle: They know. There's evidence for them.
[00:07:59] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: When women cannot have babies, and many men believe that a woman who is not able to give birth, a child is not a woman at all. It's a very sad thing. And there are many women who doesn't want to be a mother because they decided in a conscious way. I don't have to. I don't want to be a mother. And in Mexico, there is a very big problem about it. The obligation to be a mother.
[00:08:33] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: The abortion is not allowed. It's not allowed. It's even a legal problem in Mexico. but in most parts of the country, it's a very big problem. If you get pregnant, you have to be a mother because otherwise you go to the jail if you get an abortion. in most part of Mexico. And it's a public health problem.
[00:09:07] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Very, very sad. We have, Mexico is one of the first, the countries number one in the world with teenagers that are pregnant.
[00:09:18] Michelle: Wow.
[00:09:19] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: They can't decide about their bodies, our bodies.
[00:09:25] Michelle: What is that like for the two of you? your work is empowering women, how does that sit with you? How does that impact you knowing that women don't have that choice?
[00:09:42] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Unless she had been raped. If the pregnancy is secondary to violation, they could get an abortion by law.
[00:09:53] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah. I have worked with doctors, with the medical team, hospitals, and the response, the medical response, they don't agree. Most of them, the response is the silence.
[00:10:13] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yeah.
[00:10:13] Michelle: How does that feel for you?
[00:10:15] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: It's a tough, it's a tough, a very tough way in myself. I do it because I have two daughters. I am a woman in Mexico too. So I think that's the only way we have to be working with men and women and kids and in sex education because we have to change this. There are many, every year there are more collectives and organizations that are working with these topics.
[00:10:48] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: and we are every year we have more and more and more women that are facing and fighting for their rights for women rights and for gender violence in Mexico so for me I this is my my way of living now. It's not my job. It's my way of living. It's not only a job. For me, it's the way I relate with people.
[00:11:20] Michelle: It is a mission.
[00:11:22] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah.
[00:11:22] Michelle: I can imagine how stressful it is when you have two daughters of your own that could end up at some point in their life, getting pregnant before they're ready to have a child and you are advocating now i think so that when they're a little bit older they'll be able to have a choice over their body.
[00:11:54] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah, we hope someday we, we can win that fight in Mexico. I use the word fight and probably it sounds like a very tough word fight. But I think it's a way, a tough way we choose as a woman in Mexico. And also it's not only a job, it's not only a profession. We were saying that it's a way of living. It's the way of living we choose
[00:12:28] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: to have a better life for women in Mexico, for our daughters and granddaughters, probably. So all women, we knew and we didn't know. We have a lot of kidnapped women in Mexico also. So it's a security matter. It's a mental health matter. It's a public health matter.
[00:12:59] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: It's not only a psychotherapist matter. Actually, psychotherapy in Mexico, it's not for all the people. It's people who have money that can pay for it. We have a mental health service in a public hospital, in a public institute, but there's many people that are looking forward
[00:13:30] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: the service and few professionists giving the service. So for me, the activism, to be involved in these matters, it's a thing I must do. So it's very, very important.
[00:13:52] Michelle: Yeah, it's very similar here, actually, in Canada. It's a privilege. To be able to afford therapy is a privilege. Yes, there are some services where you can get it and it's covered by the government or by the health care system. But the wait list is very long for people to actually see somebody.
[00:14:16] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yeah, same like you. Yeah.
[00:14:19] Michelle: Tell me a little bit about how gender-based violence, fear of pregnancy, how does that impact how women are able to think about sex as being pleasurable versus being scary?
[00:14:49] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Well, I think that half of the women in this country could be in that place to think pleasure. At the time, they have to agree to the things that the couple asks for them, but they do not have the empowerment to ask for the intercourse when they liked it or the way they liked it or with the contraceptive that they need so they avoid a pregnancy.
[00:15:24] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: And some of them discover that there is another way of living this. Some of them think that it is too late. So it is very sad. It's very sad to listen to what they think that they need so they could be all right. They are there, but not because of a pleasure, because of economic issue, because of kids.
[00:15:50] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah, something very important is that in Mexico, in a symbolic way, we are not the owners of our bodies. The state is the owner of our bodies. The men are the owners of our lives and bodies, like a property of men. And probably you are going to say, like, why in Mexico? In the modern Mexico? Yeah, in a symbolic way, you know?
[00:16:20] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: in our unconscious, in our language, in our jokes, in the way we dress. Do you know what I mean? Not because they put a burka on us. No, it's a symbolic thing. The matter that we cannot access to an abortion, a legal abortion, imagine that. we cannot, many women that are in marriage can't go to a pharmacy to buy
[00:16:54] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: pills to get pregnant because the husband is going to get angry. You know what I mean? It's also the pleasure. We don't have sex education for pleasure. We have sex education about the physical parts. We have sex education about how the pregnancy reproductive goes. But we don't have gender education. We don't
[00:17:29] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: talk about sex diversity in sex education because we live in a homophobic a lesbophobic country. You imagine this is the Catholic place after the Vatican. This is the second most Catholic place in the world. In my name. I lived in Canada when I was a child and I remember all the respect you have. I know You also have problems in Canada, social problems.
[00:18:03] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: But imagine how Catholicism is the influence about, I'm not against the religion, but I see this in the pleasure. Imagine we don't have education for the pleasure. And the pleasure, it's a masculine, that the men can
[00:18:30] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: get because
[00:18:32] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: they are allowed. They are not allowed to feel, but they are allowed to have the pleasure. A woman, we are allowed to feel, but we are not allowed to get the pleasure, to have the pleasure, to get, make the pleasure our pleasure. As a selfish woman or as a woman that That is not, we use a lot of respective words for women to get pleasure.
[00:19:05] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: But we are changing this little by little.
[00:19:09] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Little by little.
[00:19:10] Michelle: What is it like for the LGBTQ community? Is it necessary for them to hide their identity for their safety?
[00:19:22] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Mostly they are hiding it. The ones that can leave it, they do not talk about it. The ones that have been suffered the abuse, they look for support and they go to the non-governed associations so they can have the support that they need. And there are some collectives that have a lot of jobs to do. we are more close to this community because of what we do
[00:19:58] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: many many psychologists or psychotherapists they do a thing that in Spanish we call ECOSIG, and that it's the conversion therapy and it's illegal because it's against the human rights but many many psychologists we don't talk about this in universities We don't talk about this in formal education for psychologists. So this is, the books we read are from the 70s, I think from the 60s. Yeah.
[00:20:31] Michelle: Oh my God. Right? Like sex is not just about making babies. It's about pleasure. It's about consent. It's about.
[00:20:42] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: The identity.
[00:20:43] Michelle: it's it's such a need for our kids because that's where it starts right in the education
[00:20:51] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: yeah and and also it's a right it's a need and it's a right it's a a childhood right They have the right to get an integral sex education without religion. Yeah. It's a right, but we are also pushing from the activism, from all the collectives to get sex education for kids in public
[00:21:22] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: and also in private schools. but we fight against the religion also because religion stops and the problem is that the religion is inside the state I mean all the laws are stopped
[00:21:47] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: because
[00:21:48] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: in the government are people who are very conservative so So it is like stopping all the development we can do about this.
[00:22:03] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Yeah.
[00:22:04] Michelle: We had talked about the problem of incest in Mexico. And I wanted for you to help us understand, to help me understand, how is it not illegal? Why do you think that is prevalent, so prevalent as it is?
[00:22:36] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: well I think it is because it is a tradition that they have learned and they repeat without asking it's like the privilege to do what they want to do to feel or think that the woman could be affordable that they can get them as an object and you don't have to ask for consent
[00:23:02] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: And the girls, not only women, the girls.
[00:23:06] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Or they have been abused as a child, and they think that their own child has to go through the same. Because I have this patient that his dad take her and leave her with her grandpa. And she asked not to stay there at night, and he didn't care. and she cried a lot, but he had to go and stay there for the weekend and then being picked up and taking her back to her home and she couldn't avoid it.
[00:23:41] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: So I think that maybe her dad was being abused. So he could think that it is normal and people have to suffer. But I don't know why do they keep repeating it.
[00:23:52] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: And also we have a whole culture that supports. The child abuse, the woman abuse, the incest. We have a culture of incest in Mexico because women are property of men. And because all the privilege that men have in Mexico and the culture that supports this.
[00:24:22] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: I mean, it's part of the family culture, the child abuse. It's very, very tough because it's not an individual problem. It's a social problem. Did you know that Mexico is the first place in the world of child abuse in this time? And they don't want sex education in schools because they think that we're going to corrupt the kids. Talking about sex abuse.
[00:24:57] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: I think we should talk about sex abuse with the kids. I talk with my kids, my daughters, about sex abuse because it's a way of prevent. It's a way to avoid. It's a way to stop. And not only that, we have to push the laws. We have to work with men and women and teenagers and kids. and it's a lot of work to do because the incest, it's very, very common. It's not only the father, it's the grandfather, it's the uncle,
[00:25:32] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: it's the cousin, it's the brother. Oh, my God, it's not only in one sector of social. It happens with rich people too.
[00:25:48] Michelle: And if it were to happen to a child and they went to the police, how would something like that be handled?
[00:26:00] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Well, they have the DIF that is an institution that keeps an eye on the things that relies on it. so they have lawyers and therapists that support and they have to investigate if it is true what the child is saying and they take him away
[00:26:35] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: from his family until they have the jury to decide if he had been abused or not, or if he could go back, or if there is somebody in the family that could take care.
[00:26:48] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Only 10% of the child abuse are denounced. Like you go and ask for help and you say what is happening. Most of the child abuse are silence. And many people in therapy, they come for other issues, talk about other things. And after a time in therapy, most of the times the child abuse gets out in therapy.
[00:27:20] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: But it's not the first reason they come in therapy for. They come because they are depressed. They come because they are anxious. They come because they have job issues or a couple issues. And then after months, we discover it. They have to feel first secure in the therapy space so they can talk about it.
[00:27:50] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: So this is how our experience in Mexico is.
[00:27:56] Michelle: Yes. You mentioned talking about sex with your kids and educating them about their bodies. And I was curious for the two of you, being such advocates for gender equality, what is that like within your family system and the people around you? because the way that you live and how you think,
[00:28:26] Michelle: it sounds like it goes against the majority.
[00:28:34] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: Right. It means trouble. Well, with my couple, it has been a trouble to think different than him. But my kids are grown up. One is 29 and the other one 23, and one of 19, and I think that they have grown with a different view and more free to express, to live, to do what they need to,
[00:29:08] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: to do what they want to. And, yeah, it is difficult even with our friends. Some of them do not like when you talk about this.
[00:29:19] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: We became very uncomfortable people. Right. Sometimes they don't invite us to family parties. They stopped inviting me because I am a very uncomfortable person in some places, not in every place.
[00:29:42] Dr. Lourdes Martínez Staines: I think that I also lost my job when I was at the health institute. because of this way of preparing the people and educating the people that work in the system. where they were mad. They were, I don't know, discomfort.
[00:30:06] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah. I was looking forward to open a master's degree that I was going to coordinate, and the state didn't want us because all the things we are saying and doing. Like, they don't want this kind of discourses.
[00:30:22] Michelle: They want a silence.
[00:30:24] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Yeah, of course. So the way we work is in the academic places. We work in clinical places. We also go to the street in the March, 8th of March. We go to the streets with many, many women. We also go now in June with all the communities of LGTTT. We support. Well, that's the way we do.
[00:30:54] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: And we also connect with other people from other places in other states in Mexico. So we share our thoughts, our works. We don't work in individual. We work like making nets, networking.
[00:31:12] Michelle: Yeah, like you have a community of people.
[00:31:15] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Networking. And now with you in Canada, that's fabulous. That's fantastic. Yeah.
[00:31:22] Michelle: Oh, you too. I so appreciate the time that you've taken, and I really do hope we stay in touch and somehow find ways to work together to build the community amongst sex therapists across the world to better understand where all of our challenges are and to just support each other.
[00:31:51] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: Thank you very much, Michelle. for inviting us. I am very glad to be with you that [unclear] is here with me. Yeah, we enjoyed it. Thank you.
[00:32:03] Michelle: Thank you.
[00:32:06] Dr. Selfa González Gomar Montesano: To get in touch soon.
[00:32:08] Michelle: If you have a question, a confession, or an inspirational story, send me an email to the confession booth at michelle@getsome.ca and you just might hear it on the air. I hope you enjoyed GETSOME. If you'd like to listen to more episodes, subscribe to wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And until then, be kind to yourself, be curious, and when you're ready, your sexual journey will unfold.