Ever wondered how sex workers balance personal and professional lives? Are you curious about their clients and partners? Our highly-anticipated guests Elizabeth Weisz and Katherine Van Meyl from Season 1 are back and ready to get personal. Ever heard of the term Internalized Whorephobia? You're about to. This is a conversation you won't want to miss.
Ever wondered how sex workers balance personal and professional lives? Are you curious about their clients and partners? Our highly-anticipated guests Elizabeth Weisz and Katherine Van Meyl from Season 1 are back and ready to get personal. Ever heard of the term Internalized Whorephobia? You're about to. This is a conversation you won't want to miss.
Show Notes:
Who are the clients?
Sliding scale for people with disabilities
Balancing the personal with the professional
Pregnancy and sex work
Transferable skills
Find Elizabeth Weisz Here:
www.meetelizabethweisz.com
Twitter: @YourElizabethTO
IG: @Ellieweisz_to
Find Katherine Van Meyl Here:
https://umbrellainsights.ca/
Twitter: @KatVanMeyl
IG: @KatVanMeyl
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-van-meyl/
Kat: Clients are your sons and brothers and uncles and fathers and partners. Clients are really ordinary people like there's nothing special about being either a sex worker or a client.
[THEME MUSIC]
[00:00:22] Michelle: Today, we're chatting with two past and present professional companions about work-life balance when your work is sex work.
[00:00:29] Ellie: Would I want my daughter to do this? Honestly, if I had a child and she wanted to do this, I'd be like, okay, sure. But let me show you the right way to do this.
[00:00:38] Michelle: In season one, we met Elizabeth Weisz and Katherine Van Meyl, where they talked about Canada's current legislation around sex work and the need for decriminalization. Sex workers need to be able to do their jobs with physical and emotional safety, full transparency, access to healthcare and legitimacy within the workforce. Ellie is a professional companion sex worker and sex worker rights advocate in Toronto, and Kat is a master's level therapist doing her PhD in social work at McGill and is also a documentary filmmaker. Today we're going deeper into the private worlds of Ellie and Kat. They talk about their personal relationship with sex and how they've balanced the sex work profession with their romantic lives.
[00:01:23] Ellie: When I first got into the industry, I was kind of seeing someone, but it wasn't like a monogamous thing. But I do remember that when I'd be going to work being like, I don't really wanna go, like I am with this person. I like this person. Like I don't wanna leave them type thing. And so yeah, it's definitely has crossed my mind, like if I was truly in love with somebody, how I would navigate that.
[00:01:45] Michelle: We talked about how to balance sex work. When you're on the relationship escalator. What's the relationship escalator? It's a social script about how people are supposed to behave, date, move in together, get engaged, get married, have kids.
[00:02:02] Kat: Many partners of sex workers hold incredibly whorephobic beliefs about sex workers. Because we live in a whorephobic society. We live in a slut shaming society, right? As sex workers, we have to work through some of that internalized whorephobia and shame. But then our partners may or may not have had the experience of ever meeting a sex worker before or dating a sex worker before, and they're starting that process from scratch.
[00:02:28] Michelle: Now here's my conversation with Ellie and Kat. When it comes to the clients that access sex work, what kind of person is a client of yours? Help us understand this.
[00:02:45] Ellie: There's such a broad range of the types of clients that I see in terms of why they're coming to see me. It could be simply just they're looking for the release, for some pleasure, for some companionship, or it could be that they're struggling with loneliness. They've just gone through a divorce. They want, I would almost call it like a pallette cleanser type thing, like to help them with moving on from the relationship, but to have somebody there that they know is going to be interested in listening and hearing about what's going on with them, while at the same time providing them with the companionship that they're seeking.
[00:03:19] Michelle: I could see it as being reassuring for somebody who has maybe come out of long-term relationship where they haven't had sex with other people, and really wanting to feel that kind of intimacy with somebody just for fun. Right? Instead of it having to necessarily lead into a relationship.
[00:03:37] Ellie: Exactly. That they're looking for something that's no strings attached that they're not gonna have to form a relationship with. Maybe they're in the process of getting divorced, maybe they're even unsure if this is really what they want to be doing. So it seems like a less riskier option for them to come see me and to just have that companionship that they're looking for. Many clients that I see are seeking sexual surrogacy type services because they're struggling with erectile issues or ejaculation issues, or just having trust within a sexual situation. Sometimes even they come to see me if they've never had sex before. They're a virgin. They're seeking to have that first experience.
[00:04:20] Michelle: Would you say that there's a lot of anxiety that is present with those clients that come in to see you?
[00:04:26] Ellie: With those that are struggling with sexual dysfunctions?
[00:04:28] Michelle: Yeah, with like anxiety or maybe they have early ejaculation or they struggle with ejaculation or getting an erection.
[00:04:37] Ellie: There definitely is sometimes a lot of anxiety. I have this one client who kind of has a list prepared before every session that we see each other. Like we go to his car, we smoke a joint, and he reads me his list of like, okay, so today I'm hoping that we can perform X, Y, Z, and I'm hoping that you know, you can kind of help me get over X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, Okay, sure. We have our work cut out for us today and yeah, there's sometimes like a little bit of that like anxiety on their part. Other times, yes, it is about like premature ejaculation and then sometimes I have to tell them like, it's okay. I try to explain to them as well that like for over 70, 75% of women, they can't actually orgasm through penetration. It is all about clitorial stimulation. So I try and explain to them that if you're very concerned about premature ejaculation, like you can try getting your partner off first, and then you get off and everybody's happy and it all works out that way. Some clients have issues with penetration because of the fact that they spent so much time with masturbation and the feeling of their own hand, that they're not used to that type of stimulation. So I try as well to offer advice. If I can't, I try and make it as fun and playful as possible, and it's okay to laugh during sex and to giggle, like it's a good thing.
[00:05:56] Kat: So yeah. Clients are your sons and brothers and uncles and fathers and partners like clients are very ordinary people, very common people. It's very likely if you're in a room with 50 people that. Some of them have seen and accessed sexual services in the sex industry. The one demographic piece that probably isn't so diverse is around class, right? Because ultimately it does cost a certain amount of money. It's not accessible depending on whether you're going to a massage parlor or an escort agency, or seeing an independent provider, like it can be cost prohibitive to see sex workers. So generally, speaking, you tend to get middle class, upper class, right, because it's expensive. But there are many sex workers that do offer like sliding scale services for people with disabilities or bipoc individuals or queer people or trans people or other sex workers that wouldn't be able to afford services. I've seen people, and when I was in the sex industry, I did this as well, it was honor system based. If you're a person living with a disability and you're accessing like the Ontario Disability Support Program, for example, just let me know and let me know what you can afford and let's go from there. And I do know sex workers that kind of have this honor system model to make sure that their services are accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford them. But I really love the idea that just clients are really ordinary people. There's nothing special about being either a sex worker or a client.
[00:07:33] Michelle: It's interesting because when we're having this conversation, in my mind, I am visualizing a cis hetero man. I wondered if that would be your primary client or is this industry starting to attract people with vulvas, whether it be cisgendered women, trans-feminine people.
[00:08:02] Ellie: That's a very good question. I've had a few female clients reach out to me, but in both cases, like chickened out in the end, and I was a little sad cuz I was like, oh, I was really looking forward to meeting you. But I get it that it can seem very overwhelming and that in a way maybe they feel. I don't know. Maybe that I'm not, won't be as accepting. I, I'm not sure. Or it could just be really that they're anxious as well and it feels like something that's crossing some boundary.
[00:08:28] Kat: Yeah. The majority of my clients when I was a sex worker were heterosexual men. I did see some cisgendered women, couples absolutely is really big, you know, in terms of gay men who offer services, right? The majority of their clients also identify as cisgendered and heterosexual, even though they're having sex with men, which I think is really interesting. So clients of like male sex workers many of them are married and identify as hetero, even though they're having sex with men, which is like an interesting space, right? It doesn't mean that there aren't also queer men, but to being gay is an identity, right? Queerness is an identity. So behaviors and who you fuck and whether you suck dick or whatever, like that doesn't necessarily determine your like, sexual identity. There is a truth to the fact that the majority of clients are cisgendered heterosexual men, as are the majority of sex workers are also cisgendered, heterosexual women. But there are of course, other populations, right? And we have to make sure we include them in the conversation.
[00:09:28] Michelle: You know, there is this real common thread between the kind of work that therapists do with their clients, where it is a very deep intimacy and there is a very deep intimacy in sex work. When you're in, let's just say in your personal life, you're in a relationship and you have connections and long-term clients that you've seen who you have a very deep, intimate connection with, how do you balance that with a partner or partners? Is it difficult or have you found your way around it? Because in my mind, I think, well, it's kind of like, I guess, poly?
[00:10:22] Kat: Elizabeth, you know me so well!
[00:10:24] Ellie: I do, I wonder if we're actually thinking about the same thing when we smiled at each other. I'm not gonna say anything on that one. That's not my space. Yeah. I personally can't really speak too much on this one just because I haven't really had any serious relationships since I got into sex work. It is something that I have definitely pondered to myself about. How would I manage it? Just because when I first got into the industry, I was kind of seeing someone, but it wasn't like a monogamous thing. But I do remember that when I'd be going to work, and granted, I was going to work with the agency, so I wasn't as happy as I am presently within my job. But I do remember being like, I don't really wanna go. Like I am with this person. I like this person. Like I don't wanna leave them type thing. And so yeah, it's definitely has crossed my mind, like if I was truly in love with somebody, how I would navigate that. But at the same time, I was in a relationship prior to entering the industry for nine years I was married. Attraction does fade over time and you do still notice other people and are sexually attracted to other people. And I do remember at that stage in my life, I did feel bad and I would actually like chastises myself internally and be like, what's wrong with me? I'm in love. I'm married. Why am I still attracted to other people? I don't understand. So I guess it's my long way of saying that I haven't had to navigate it. But at the same time, I do feel like if I was in a committed relationship and I was in love with somebody and we had that connection, an understanding of the difference between what is work and what is personal, then I feel like it would be easier.
[00:12:08] Kat: This was the topic of my master's research on the interpersonal relationships of sex workers because I was really seeking to understand the fucked up relationships I had been in as a sex worker and how sex workers navigate their romantic relationships. Many sex workers will talk about whorer relationships like w-h-o-r-e-r-e-r relationships. How do sex workers navigate that? And my responses not very well.
[00:12:36] Michelle: Okay. Say more. What do you mean by that?
[00:12:38] Kat: It's a very difficult space because most of the resources on non-monogamy or polyamory won't necessarily touch on what happens if your financial security is tied into your ability to be non-monogamous in some way. So a lot of these resources will talk about like primary partnerships or domestic partnerships and like taking time and space to like heal and focus on those relationships, which means pausing other relationships at time. But there's a financial implication to that for sex workers, right? That's not always possible. Ultimately, many sex workers that I interviewed and just also, just like in activism and in talking to people, I've learned that some sex workers identify as monogamous, right? The sex they have at work is sex. They have at work. And the sex they have with their partner is the sex they have with their partner, and they have an understanding of themselves and their relationships as being monogamous. Right? Whereas others understand it as being more complex than that, as inherently non-monogamous or maybe polyamorous in some way. Even those with like very secure attachment styles still struggle with poly at times. Right?
[00:13:45] Michelle: And I guess the difficulty with comparing having intimate relationships with your clients is that, I guess in poly, the idea is that there's an openness, like everybody involved knows what's going on, and I don't know how open clients that are seeing a sex worker are with their primary partner or?
[00:14:11] Kat: Mm-hmm. I actually don't know if those models apply cuz in poly as well, we're talking about attachment relationships and this may or may not be the case for sex workers, right? That these are meaningful, important relationships and this person's life, like people, they rely and depend on people that meet certain needs beyond financial. It's really complex, but I think because of, let's dive into internalized whorephobia here. Many partners of sex workers hold incredibly whorephobic beliefs about sex workers. Because we live in a whorephobic society. We live in a slut shaming society, right? As sex workers, we have to work through some of that internalized whorephobia and shame. But then our partners may or may not have had the experience of ever meeting a sex worker before or dating a sex worker before, and they're starting that process from scratch. And unfortunately, what tends to happen is that the partners of sex workers don't necessarily educate themselves about sex work, will rely on their partners to educate them in very specific sorts of ways. A lot of mess happens along the way. A lot of pain, a lot of hurt, a lot of anxiety and fear. And then sex workers grapple with just living in a whorephobic society and then coming home and experiencing whorephobia from their partners, and then feeling shame. And I've met so many sex workers, myself included, so I was married before my most recent relationship, it was an abusive relationship, and I genuinely believed at that time that I was deserving of the treatment that I was receiving because I was a sex worker like I was in my early twenties. Right? I genuinely thought like, well, I don't know if anyone will ever be able to love me the way I am because I'm a whore. Right? What does healthy look like in this context? I have no fucking idea. And it really makes this vulnerable. Like there's this article by Tiffany Tempest and it's on internalized whorephobia and her experiences of navigating that in her relationship. So she says things like, because I have sex for money, I felt that I had to allow my partner to have sex for fun. So she had a partner who I believe filmed her having a blowjob and she was in porn. So her partner then shared this video with a friend, unconsensually, and she was like, because my erotic images and videos, you can Google my name and find pictures of me online engaging in all of these sexual acts, I felt like I didn't actually have the right to be angry with my partner for sharing this video with a friend, even though she felt so violated by that, right? She felt that she had to be extra sexual with her partner because he was tolerating her have being a sex worker, and...
[00:16:56] Ellie: This is bringing back a lot of memories for me actually, regarding that relationship that I was in prior to entering the industry. We had been seeing each other for about six months before I entered the industry and prior to me entering. We've been sexting, whatever. And he'd been like, oh, like can you send me like a nude picture? Can you send me this? Can you send me that? And at that stage I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm like, at that point I'd wanted to become a therapist. And I was like, no. I'm like, you know, I wanna become a therapist. I cannot have pictures of my boobs circulating on the internet. And then after I had entered the industry, He had started to ask me again for those types of things, and he had asked, oh, can I like film you giving me a blowjob underwater? Can you like bring your friends from work to have like a threesome with us? And also asking me to do more sexual things than I'd been comfortable with prior. And because I was now in the industry and because I was grateful that he was still seeing me and wanted to have sex with me and have any emotional connection with me, I was agreeing to all of these things that. Prior to me entering, I never would've agreed. Now I'm realizing was a lot of internalized whorephobia that I myself was going through. For me, the only thing that really helped with internalized whorephobia was finding a community of other sex workers who also were working within the industry, but had pride in what they were doing, had overcome some of their own internalized whorephobia and had pride in being a sex worker and being a businesswoman. And then made me realize, oh, like I don't need to be shameful about this.
[00:18:27] Kat: Oh, yeah. Like in the work that I do with sex workers, like as a sex worker, I can challenge the internalized whorephobia of my clients in very particular kinds of ways because all the sex workers that I see in my private practice know I'm a sex worker, peer-to-peer support, in that regard, building community like sex workers, talking to other sex workers about these experiences is key. It's a fundamental to overcoming internalized whorephobia, every sex worker I've ever spoken to, that was a huge part of their journey in terms of overcoming that shame and overcoming all those internalized messages. It was like just hearing other people's experiences and how they navigated that and yeah, the pride as well. It's just so devastating when I read people's experiences and I hear people's experiences when I reflect on my own in terms of the things that I allowed to happen because of that internalized whorephobia. It's just so sad. Like it's really fucking sad, you know?
[00:19:26] Michelle: When people are going through, let's say, the relationship escalator, right? Where maybe you're in sex work, you meet somebody, you get engaged and you get to a point where you're thinking about having kids, but you're still working in sex work. Is that when it ends or is there a space for people to continue working? When they're pregnant.
[00:20:02] Ellie: Bum bum bum!
[00:20:03] Kat: Wow. Michelle.
[00:20:07] Kat: I worked as an escort throughout my pregnancy, and I also worked postpartum, so this would've been in 2017. At the time, I genuinely was unaware of many sex workers who had ever worked pregnant or advertised pregnant. I'd seen it in porn. Of course, there's a lot of pregnancy related porn that had been working in the industry at that point for, uh, For eight or nine years when I got pregnant. So I just decided, I was like, I'm gonna work throughout pregnancy. Like, why not? I remember asking my midwife at one point though, cuz I just wasn't sure. So when I started leaking colostrum from my breasts and my like seventh, eighth month of pregnancy, I was very concerned because men really loved ejaculating on my tits. And I was like, like things are coming out. Can anything go in? Like, is this like a source of possible STDs. Like I just didn't know. I was like, What if this dude has chlamydia and I get chlamydia in my tits. I mean, so my midwife, she was amazing. Very supportive of the fact that I was still working and like very sex worker friendly. Like she marched in Pride with me under a banner of sex workers' rights. She was phenomenal. And then she said, Kat, It's an out only. Things come out, nothing goes in. And I was like, okay, good. She was like, it's ok. It's okay if men come on your tits. And I was like, okay, great.
[00:21:22] Ellie: I love that story so much.
[00:21:24] Michelle: My question then is, are these clients that you had been seeing over the years that you had developed a relationship with, or were these clients that actually maybe always wanted to be with somebody who was pregnant? Like how did that work?
[00:21:39] Kat: It was a combination of both. So the majority of my clients that I had prior to pregnancy continued to see me throughout my pregnancy. And then I also had new clients who were very interested in either re-experiencing what it was like to be with a woman who was pregnant or for unfortunate reasons could never actually experience, like for example, their wives, maybe there was illness throughout their pregnancies or their wives just weren't feeling very sexual. But there was this desire to maybe experience that missed opportunities and this kinda stuff. I, however, was very specific. In terms of not wanting like any pregnancy fetish sort of stuff. I just wasn't very interested personally in offering pregnancy fetish like services per se. I know there's a huge genre and there's all sorts of things that I could have offered, which I didn't. For me, I still wanted it to be focused on companionship and sex and intimacy. I just happened to be pregnant. Mm-hmm. I stopped working when I was eight and a half months pregnant.
[00:22:38] Ellie: Out of curiosity, did you notice if your clients started interacting with you differently? During that time?
[00:22:44] Kat: There was only one client who, for some reason, had anticipated that after the first trimester or when I began showing, he had assumed I would simply stop working as a sex worker. When I continued to work, he was actually quite upset. He was surprised and we met in person. We didn't have sex. He still paid my full rate, and he just wanted to share with me his concerns that I was going to be working pregnant, and what would I tell my daughter? I knew at that point that I was having a girl, so he had a lot of beliefs about pregnancy and sex and women and sex work, and this is someone I had seen for many years, and so it was very hurtful. I actually told him, I was like, you know, you could have told me all of this in an email as opposed to subjecting me to this bullshit.
[00:23:31] Michelle: I mean, it's a judgment, right? It's like his story, his narrative that he was then putting on you as though this is real, like you continue doing this, it's going to have terrible effects on your daughter.
[00:23:44] Ellie: It also plays into a lot of the things that people throw at us. Being like, if your daughter ever knows what you're doing, what are you gonna tell her? Would you want your daughter to do this? Or like, in my case, like my mom is, we've come to a point where we're pretty open about what I'm doing. And even to the point where like recently she said to me, well, I wish your father would act that way with me sometimes, these men could teach him a lesson, or are they interested in meeting me too? I also wanna come to the spa. Can I come too? But in terms of what, regardless with what Kat was saying, like I think it's very much, it plays into that, would you want your child to do this? That judgment. So to them, they're almost, I'm imagining in his head, it was almost like you were bringing your child along to work or something was like imprinting on the baby. I don't know, but it's such BS like in regards to, would I want my daughter to do this? Honestly? If I had a child and she wanted to do this, I'd be like, okay, sure, but let me teach you, let me show you the right way to do this.
[00:24:44] Kat: It's similar to the arguments around abortion, right? Conservatives will say, well, do you want your daughter to have an abortion? I'm like, if she needs one, I want her to be able to do it safely. So when it comes to sex work, I'm like, look, it's a profession, right? I don't know if I wish it or not on anyone, but anyone who decides to do it, I wanna make sure that they can access all of the things that you need to access to be able to do it safely. For me, it's very simple.
[00:25:07] Ellie: Yeah. And at the end of the day, like I feel like we're living in a late capitalist society. We all need to do what we need to do to survive, and how we choose to labor is how we choose to labor. I think I would. Prefer my daughter to be a sex worker over having my daughter working in coal mines or any sort of other type of dangerous job. It's really just about, we all need to do what we need to do to survive in this world, and at the end of the day, we just need to have our labor rights to be able to labor safely within whatever profession we choose to consensually participate within.
[00:25:41] Michelle: So how would you say that this profession has impacted your relationship with sex, is it that you're just having so much sex that you're just like, fuck, I never wanna have sex again, or does it prime you to want more sex when you're having sex more regularly. What's your experience with this?
[00:26:03] Kat: I'd actually like to start on that one because it's something I've been reflecting on a lot, having transitioned out of the sex industry, I guess two-ish years ago. So it's something I've been like ruminating on. What had more of an impact on my sexual development was intrusive sexual experiences I had as a child. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual assault, and I've had plethora of really unfortunate sexual experiences growing up, and it really primed me to be other focused in sex, to focus on the pleasure of others, and that tends to work really well with sex work, right? So I was an incredibly good sex worker, but I was also very disconnected for many years with my own sexual needs with what I wanted sexually, with what I liked sexually.
[00:26:54] Michelle: It was more performative type of thing? Is that what you mean?
[00:26:57] Kat: I wasn't even aware that it was performative necessarily because it was so ingrained to be focused on others. And to not necessarily have my own boundaries or needs or to feel that my sexual needs were important or that I was deserving of an orgasm, like as simple as that, right? That marriage with sex work made me an amazing sex worker. In fact, like it was definitely an asset. But as I reflect now as sex work, In the rear view mirror and as I'm now in a new relationships where the sex is really phenomenal.
[00:27:32] Michelle: Yay. You're looking a little bit red right now.
[00:27:38] Ellie: Yeah you are actually
[00:27:43] Michelle: and you know you're gonna get laid tonight, or at least whenever this episode airs.
[00:27:50] Kat: Oh my gosh. I didn't know it could be this way.
[00:27:52] Michelle: Wow. Is it a psychological place that the two of you go that feels different than maybe a place you've been able to really go before?
[00:28:01] Kat: Yeah, I've been thinking about it. I really think it's just where I've developed, right? Like I'm in a place now after what, a decade of therapy where over the past, I'd say five years in particular, I've really focused on kind of processing those early childhood experiences and just the frameworks that I've internalized and like really challenging those and trying to shift them where I'm like, no, actually I am deserving and my needs do matter and my boundaries should not be violated constantly and also, sex work being two years in the past, it's almost like it allowed me to leave something behind where I'm like, okay, I have this opportunity to be differently sexually. And I also found myself wondering, I was like, is this the development in some way of like normal female sexuality under patriarchy? Cuz like I hear that people in their like thirties and forties. It's like real fucking good cuz we suddenly feel very deserving of all of the things we didn't feel deserving of in in our teen years and in our twenties. Right?
[00:29:02] Michelle: Taking up space, feeling more comfortable in your body, not giving two shits about what other people think. We're gonna start to wrap up and I'm gonna ask one more question and then we'll end on this note, which is, what is one thing that you've taken from working as a sex worker, that has been really beneficial in taking that skill, let's say, into just real life stuff.
[00:29:34] Kat: Yeah. In terms of sex work, I feel there are so many transferable skills. Marketing, website design and development taxes as a self-employed individual is a big piece. The accounting aspect of things. Client management, being able to bond quickly. Right. That's so important for like client retention, cuz it's safer for sex workers to have regulars. Right. As opposed to seeing new clients all of the time. And so there is something there in terms of what are all the tips and tricks for client retention. So now that I'm a therapist, all the same applies. In fact, all of those skills I learned as a sex worker are like instrumental. As a therapist, I spend time with all sorts of different kinds of people that I have to build connections with, and it's a huge part of the work as a sex worker. So people who talk about transitioning out of the sex industry will often talk about all of these transferrable skills. Which unfortunately we can't write on our resume. Right? And that's a pretty shitty piece that we can't just write, worked in sex work from this year to this year. And here are all of the skills that I developed as a result of being in this industry, right, cuz of whorephobia, we can't do that. And it's so unfortunate because so many of the skills learned are transferable to other jobs.
[00:30:48] Ellie: Outta curiosity. Do you know in places where it's legalized, can you then put it on your resume or are you still experiencing that stigma from whorephobia?
[00:30:55] Kat: I don't know. I know that where it's been decriminalized, stigma is reduced but not eliminated. I still imagine that people, even where it's decriminalized or even legalized, that people aren't writing like sex work on their resumes when applying to work like a government job or something like that. I doubt it. Anyway. Yeah, it would be nice if we reached a point where that were possible, but.
[00:31:17] Michelle: Kat and Ellie thank you so much.
[00:31:21] Michelle: Where do you want people to find you?
[00:31:23] Ellie: In my case, they can find me on Twitter, @yourelizabethTO or they can find me on my website, meetelizabethweisz.com or Instagram, @ellieweisz_TO
[00:31:41] Kat: And for me, um, on Twitter, I'm @katvanmeyl. Or, on my website, www.umbrellainsights.ca.
[00:31:53] Michelle: That was my conversation with Ellie and Kat. This show is produced by Katie Jensen at Vocal Fry Studios. If you have show ideas or even a confession that you want me to answer in an episode, email me at michelle@getsome.ca and don't forget to follow me on Instagram @getsome_podcast. You'll get great ideas around sex and sexuality as well as to see what's happening between episodes. Thank you for listening.