Shame doesn’t care how much it’s ruining your sex life. It just wants an audience. But instead of hitting up the concession stand, what if you sat in the front row and got curious? You might be surprised at what you learn (and how your body responds afterwards). David Bedrick is the founder of The Unshaming Way and the author of five books. Instead of asking how to move past the shame, he asks what the shame is trying to say. Because you’re not a problem: you’re a person with a story whose symptoms carry lots of intelligence. Content note: this episode briefly mentions childhood harm and sexual trauma.
Shame doesn’t care how much it’s ruining your sex life. It just wants an audience. But instead of hitting up the concession stand, what if you sat in the front row and got curious? You might be surprised at what you learn (and how your body responds afterwards).
David Bedrick is the founder of The Unshaming Way and the author of five books. Instead of asking how to move past the shame, he asks what the shame is trying to say. Because you’re not a problem: you’re a person with a story whose symptoms carry lots of intelligence.
Content note: this episode briefly mentions childhood harm and sexual trauma.
Topics covered
Find David Bedrick
Produced by Katie Jensen of Vocal Fry Studios, now in her third season with GETSOME.
[00:00:00] David Bedrick: Oh, you wanna be harder? Of course you do. Oh, you feel bad about yourself as a man? Tell me about that. We're all swimming in a sea of a culture that says there's ways of being, and those things are so strong
[00:00:29] Michelle Fischler: I'm Michelle [00:00:30] Fischler, certified sex therapist, and this is Get Some. This season, I wanna talk about men, what they're told they should be, and what happens in bed when they can't be it.
[00:00:45] David Bedrick: This is what a man should be. Should be strong, and ready, and able and, you know, not cry, and whatever those things are. And then there's ideas about sexuality, what I should feel, what I shouldn't feel.
[00:00:56] David Bedrick: What I should feel as a man. I should be hard and ready. What you feel as a woman. You [00:01:00] shouldn't want too much. So there's so many of those things that are part of the culture.
[00:01:05] Michelle Fischler: My guest today is David Bedrick, the author of The Unshaming Way. Shame is an
[00:01:12] David Bedrick: inner attitude towards oneself, a vision. Something looks at you and says, "What's wrong with you?"
[00:01:20] David Bedrick: You're not a problem, you're a person with a story, whose symptoms carry lots of intelligence.
[00:01:27] Michelle Fischler: His work changed how [00:01:30] I understand shame. It helped me stop asking the question, how do I get this person past the problem? And start asking, what is the problem trying to tell us?
[00:01:41] David Bedrick: The difficulty is, "I'm soft." Let softness be here.
[00:01:44] David Bedrick: Let's see if we can learn something about it.
[00:01:47] Michelle Fischler: Typically, we wanna run in the other direction of shame, and David is saying, "Actually, let's get a little bit curious."
[00:01:54] David Bedrick: Almost no one has had what I would call an unshaming witness, someone who wants to [00:02:00] know their experiences and their story deeply. Tell me the details.
[00:02:03] David Bedrick: What does it really feel like? Without an agenda, without a pathologization, without wanting to fix, at least at first, is so rare. We almost never do that with ourselves.
[00:02:14] Michelle Fischler: If you know what you're supposed to do sexually, but your body seems to have other plans, this episode's for you. We talk about shame, performance pressure, the intelligence inside our symptoms, and why we cannot technique our way out of [00:02:30] shame.
[00:02:30] Michelle Fischler: Here's my conversation with David Bedrick. How would you define shame?
[00:02:37] David Bedrick: One way of saying it is shame is an inner attitude towards oneself, a vision of oneself. And the vision is something looks at you and says, "What's wrong with you?" And treats it like a symptom. It pathologizes. Something's wrong with you, you're [00:03:00] having that pattern.
[00:03:01] David Bedrick: We should fix that. That pathologizing approach, figuring out what's wrong and fixing it, doesn't ever ask what's the intelligence, the message? What is your story behind that experience that humanizes you? You're not a problem. You're a person with a story whose symptoms carry lots of intelligence.
[00:03:25] Michelle Fischler: It can be very difficult [00:03:30] to convince somebody that that voice that's telling them, for example, you're broken and you're a failure, it's very hard for people to part with that.
[00:03:46] Michelle Fischler: And I was finding that that was what I was bumping up against, right? There's gotta be more. There's gotta be something [00:04:00] about that voice. For them, it almost is like it's another limb on their body, right? And that somehow it serves a purpose How did somebody become so connected with that voice even though it caused internal turmoil?
[00:04:28] David Bedrick: I mean, it's a very deep [00:04:30] question you're asking. It's almost always
[00:04:38] David Bedrick: transgenerational, the way we've survived in our own lives, the traumas of my own childhoods, et cetera, but almost always predates that as well. They're long-term belief systems, and then we naturally survive, assimilate, get along in the culture [00:05:00] for so long, for so many generations, for so long in our lives, that we forget that that's not us.
[00:05:08] David Bedrick: So we put parts of ourselves away, but we don't remember doing such a thing. You may put away aspects of your power, your fire, your anger, your bigness. Many women will put that away, and they will think of themselves genuinely as, "Well, I'm just a more shy person, a more quiet person." They don't think of [00:05:30] themselves as, "I'm a big person who's made themselves small."
[00:05:33] David Bedrick: They said, "Well, I'm a caring person. I'm a giving person. I'm a generous person, and it makes sense. It looks better this way. It works for me this way. I've been doing it for a long time. Everyone around me says be thin and pretty. Everyone around me says, if you're Jewish... I'm a Jewish person, it would be better not to ask for money 'cause that looks greedy and act too smart because Jews think this.
[00:05:55] David Bedrick: And if you're Black, that looks better for me not to be too forceful 'cause people [00:06:00] think you're militant," et cetera, et cetera. "If I'm queer, looks better not to have my sexuality too out because people put that down." So the culture itself makes it easier to say, "I think I'll just be a little less like that."
[00:06:13] David Bedrick: Now, when that happens, not just consciously, but if I'm used to putting certain things away for so long, I don't remember making that decision to say I won't do that. I just think I'm a nice guy and that that's a good value system. I don't think my heat, my [00:06:30] fire, my challenging nature, my disagreeableness, I put that away.
[00:06:34] David Bedrick: I think this is a good person That system, that assimilationist, that survival orientation is so deep we don't remember when it happened. Some people do. When I was a kid, I lived in a violent house. So I had a father who expressed his rage with fists and voices and belts that he used to threaten and injure, and he was [00:07:00] not home a lot.
[00:07:01] David Bedrick: And when he came home, he was in that state. He didn't come home friendly and warm. He came home in what we would call a mood I thought that was him. So I lived scared almost all the time, a level of fear For years and years, I thought I was a shy person. And people would say, "You're kinda quiet." And one day I was thinking about that deeply in my history, and I was like, "I'm not [00:07:30] shy.
[00:07:30] David Bedrick: I'm scared a lot." That's a very different description. One is humanizing, both, right? "Oh, you're scared. Oh my gosh, what happened? Of course you have fear in you. You lived in that situation. Tell me your story." Now we become intimate. We develop a relationship. You tell me your stories. Shy just sounds like just who I am, and all of that humanity goes away, and my story goes away.
[00:07:58] Michelle Fischler: In [00:08:00] working as a sex therapist, people will come into my office with that hope of, please, like, take this away, right? They just want to feel better. So they go right into the, I just need to fix this. I need my erection, or I need to last longer, or I need to not feel pain anymore. And the wish of just to give them a pill or to [00:08:30] give them an exercise, you feel it as a therapist.
[00:08:35] Michelle Fischler: And I think sometimes, and myself included, you feel the intensity of, like, them just wanting to feel better. And so sometimes there is that tendency to be like, do some breathing exercises. And I'm not knocking breathing exercises or mindfulness or certain kinds of CBT But there's [00:09:00] a part that's missing that we miss, I think, as clinicians, because it brings it up in us, too.
[00:09:08] Michelle Fischler: It brings up, well, we want to be a good therapist. We want them to leave here with something. And what I learned from you was the importance of let's not send them home with another technique that they're likely not gonna be able to do and [00:09:30] then add that on to feeling like even more of a failure, but rather sit with just the experience of even doing the exercise and what comes up, what some of that resistance is, what is...
[00:09:48] Michelle Fischler: It's like getting curious about the resistance, which is really tricky to do that. And so I wonder if you can just [00:10:00] describe, like, the process of what it is about working with the body and the sound and sensations and staying there that can help to free clients in some ways or to have more information so that their experience makes more sense.
[00:10:23] David Bedrick: Yeah. Exactly. I hear, totally hear you. I love the [00:10:30] Difficulty you're presenting. I'm a client, I come to you. I do want my erection. I do want it to go longer. I do wanna be kinder. I don't wanna be upset. I don't wanna be triggered. I don't wanna be depressed. I don't wanna be anxious. They say, "Can you help me?"
[00:10:45] David Bedrick: And I say, "I think I can." Now, in order to help you, I first need to know a little bit more about the difficulty. Can I ask you more about that softness, that [00:11:00] flaccidness? I wanna help you get to the place you wanna get, but I need to know something more about the difficulty. "Well, it's bad. I don't wanna be that way."
[00:11:07] David Bedrick: I understand. That's not an answer. That's a judgment. What's it like? Feel yourself being not turned on. Feel the softness, the non-hardness in your penis, in your body. Feel it a little bit. Okay, let yourself be softer. Maybe your breath relaxes. Maybe your [00:11:30] shoulders drop down. Maybe you drip a little bit, you curl a little bit in your body.
[00:11:35] David Bedrick: Let softness be here. Let's see if we can learn something about it. And then if I do that, go ahead, relax your body, let yourself be soft. Oh, you're leaning over. Would you wanna sit down? Yeah. You wanna sit down on the floor? Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Oh, I see you're closing your eyes as you do that. Yeah. What's it like?
[00:11:54] David Bedrick: "Oh, I've been tired a lot." Really? Tell me about that. "Well, I've been working really hard." Tell me [00:12:00] more. And then the person starts saying things, and then I can say, "Now I understand the softness. There's a tiredness in you, and you're wanting to be performing during the day and performing on the night, and that's not the next step yet.
[00:12:12] David Bedrick: We can get to that soon, but first we have to know there's a party that's not quite there yet." And then at that moment, the person will take that in because they're having... I'm not convincing them of something, right? They're having an experience. It's not the medicine itself, it's how we hold the [00:12:30] medicine.
[00:12:30] David Bedrick: If you're an acupuncturist, it's not the needle. I used to call it your meta skill, your orientation, the art of your clinical practice to invite people into some experience that no one has invited them into before. Almost no one has had what I would call an unshaming witness, someone who wants to know their experiences and their story deeply, not just like, "I believe you, that happened to you."
[00:12:54] David Bedrick: Who really, "Tell me the details. What does it really feel like?" Looking at things from an unshaming way [00:13:00] is such a radical paradigm. I don't mean to beef it up in that way. What I mean is sp- having somebody take genuine interest in what's actually happening without an agenda, without a pathologization, without a wanting to fix, at least at first, is so rare.
[00:13:17] David Bedrick: We almost never do that with ourselves.
[00:13:19] Michelle Fischler: And when I was watching you talk and really take in the client's experience- What I didn't hear you [00:13:30] do was you didn't make an interpretation. You just followed along with what you were seeing exactly in front of you and just being curious.
[00:13:41] David Bedrick: Isn't that amazing how rare it is if you have a headache?
[00:13:45] David Bedrick: Some will say, "What kind of headache is it? Is it pressure? Is it on one side? Is it like a sharp knife in your soul, in your side? Is it like migrainal and you're dizzy? Is it pulsing?" Then people say, "I... Nobody's ever asked me." Now, that's just a headache, but [00:14:00] think about other experiences. Somebody came to me, "I smoke cigarettes.
[00:14:04] David Bedrick: I wanna stop." What's it like to smoke a cigarette? "What do you mean?" How could you smoke two packs a day for twenty years and not know? You could not know. And I'm thinking, Michelle, of a woman I worked with many years ago who said, "I need help with my relationships." I said, "Tell me." She says, "I'm just not open."
[00:14:25] David Bedrick: She said, "And you can't have a good relationship if you're not [00:14:30] open." And then I say, "Oh, that's difficult. I need to help you with that. What is it like when you're not open?" "Well, I wanna be open." I understand. I'm gonna get there, but first I have to understand what's actually happening. What's it like when you're not open?
[00:14:44] David Bedrick: And then she says, "Well, I'm, like, hidden." Show me. And she steps back, and she puts her hands in front of her face, and she can see through the fingers, but people can't see. She has her hands in front of her face. Fingers are open. She's, like, looking through a grid [00:15:00] And I say, "Tell me more." She said, "It's like I'm standing behind a rock, and I'm looking around the rock to see the person."
[00:15:08] David Bedrick: And she had a man that she was interested in. I said, "Look at him from behind that rock. What are you looking at?" She says, "I'm trying to see if he's really someone who could meet my needs or not." So then I have to think, oh, there's something called not open that she needs to be more in touch with. Now she can say, "But how do I be open?"
[00:15:29] David Bedrick: Oh, [00:15:30] being open. Now you have to go into relationships being really open. I have needs. I need to check you out a little bit. You can check me out a little bit. I have to get to know you a little bit to see if you're a good person for me. That's really open. Now I have to really reveal my needs, and I have to really say it's gonna take a while for me to find out whether you're the kind of person I wanna get more intimate with.
[00:15:50] David Bedrick: So I can go back to the openness thing, but first I have to go through the body experience, and the body experience is I wanna be back. Now, the [00:16:00] social issue there is huge. Who told you you need to be more open? We're all swimming in a sea of a culture that says there's ways of being, and then everybody is affected by those, by parents, but the culture itself is so big, right?
[00:16:18] David Bedrick: Around gender. This is what a man should be. Should be strong and ready and able and other kind... Whatever the, you know, not cry and whatever those things are. Those things are so strong. [00:16:30] And then there's ideas about sexuality, what I should feel, what I shouldn't feel, what I should feel as a man. I should be hard and ready, what you feel as a woman.
[00:16:37] David Bedrick: You shouldn't want too much. So there's so many of those things that are part of the culture imbued through religious systems, imbued through everything that's around us, through TV and media. Those things are all around. So everybody has them seeped in. They often come through the parent, but the parent is usually a channel for that culture.
[00:16:59] David Bedrick: I wanna [00:17:00] get you to be something like that. Toughen you
[00:17:02] Michelle Fischler: up. I need to toughen you up. Toughen
[00:17:04] David Bedrick: you up or pretty you up or thin you up or those kinds of things. It's so deep that we, like I said, we swim in that sea, and we don't exactly notice it. Here's something I've learned that people can almost always relate to.
[00:17:19] David Bedrick: Not always, but if you ask a person, "Were you ever hurt as a child?" It could've been somebody who violated you and you know it, [00:17:30] sexually or with a fist or a hand or a slap. It could have been somebody who didn't pay attention to you very much, and you felt like a neglect, like, like I'm lonely and nobody's here for me.
[00:17:41] David Bedrick: Then I would say to a person, even a tiny little bit, even if no one meant anything, no, nobody did these terrible things to me, but I suffered. Some people didn't listen to me enough. Smaller things. Everyone can come up with something if I say, "Even just give me a tiniest little this didn't only feel good."[00:18:00]
[00:18:00] David Bedrick: And then the question is Who didn't you tell about that? Who did you not share that with? I didn't never told my parents. I didn't think it was a big deal. Well, I never told my mother because she would be upset. I never told my father. He's so busy. I never told my family because they would never have done anything about it, wouldn't have believed me.
[00:18:21] David Bedrick: Now, the reasonings I just gave, everyone's too busy. They would have been just upset. They would have [00:18:30] blamed me for, like, being seductive with my parent. They would have blamed me for doing things wrong and upsetting my father. They have so much on their plate they can't handle anymore. Those reasons people carry into their life, and those reasons keep a person quiet.
[00:18:49] David Bedrick: And instead of saying, "I told my mother about what my father did," what happens inside is, "I should be quiet. I cause problems. I'm difficult. I'm a [00:19:00] burden. My story doesn't matter that much." That's shame. And most people can find it there. "Oh, I, I walk around. I didn't tell my mother because sh- she can't handle things.
[00:19:11] David Bedrick: I'm a person who's too much. People can't handle me. I didn't tell my father 'cause he's busy. I'm a burden of people. I didn't tell people because they can't handle it. People can't handle me. I'm way too much." That verdict, "This is the kind of person I am that's not worthy of being listened to, curious about," [00:19:30] that's the birth of shame.
[00:19:31] David Bedrick: I mean, part of it is a lot of shame happens not directly. "You're bad. How can you do that? That's not true," when you're telling a story. A lot of shame happens because of silence. Nobody speaks about it. For instance, if you're hurt as a child, many people tell me abuse stories, and I say, "Who do you tell?" And they said, "Nobody knew."
[00:19:53] David Bedrick: And that means they didn't tell someone, and then when if you inquire, there was a reason they didn't tell. It wasn't because they were silent. It was [00:20:00] because there's nobody to tell. Okay? So that silence is a big thing. Now we go to the sexual topic. Who did you talk to about sex? And how many people are gonna say, "Nobody"?
[00:20:12] David Bedrick: That's not just an empty space. The not talking about sex didn't happen because nobody talked about it. It didn't happen because people were awkward about it, uncomfortable about it, thought it was bad, right? I don't raise a child and not talk about it because I just forgot. I don't talk about it because I'm not supposed to, because [00:20:30] I'm not comfortable with my own sexuality, because I'm too awkward.
[00:20:33] David Bedrick: Does this make sense? So I am communicating. I'm communicating uncomfort, morality, bad, you shouldn't talk about it. I'm communicating all those things in that silence, so that gets transmitted.
[00:20:54] Michelle Fischler: Somebody who was in a sexual situation or a sexual [00:21:00] dynamic with somebody and shame showed up in their body, what's one thing that they can pay attention to to help bring them back into the room
[00:21:20] David Bedrick: If a person has that experience, then they probably have it not only once. If that happens for me over [00:21:30] time, then I would say at a time when you're not having sex so that you're now in an easier scene, think about moving towards having sex with that person, whether that's touching, whether that's getting into bed, whether that's sitting on the couch.
[00:21:50] David Bedrick: Think about the beginning and then notice, is there any part of you, even the tiniest, tiniest little bit that's not only at ease and saying [00:22:00] yes? .001%. It can be the minuscule little tiny bit, yeah, I'm not always 100%. Sit with that and feel the part that says, "Not yet. No." Or, "Go slower, not so fast." Feel that.
[00:22:20] David Bedrick: Say the words out loud, "Ooh, I don't have a full yes. Ooh, not so fast. Ooh, I don't think so." If it's strong, [00:22:30] "No, I don't wanna do this. No, absolutely not. I never wanted to do this." If it's strong. If it's mild, "Eeh, I don't think I wanna do it." If it's very, very mild, "Not exactly. I- I'm not 100%." Say whatever those words are, right?
[00:22:44] David Bedrick: Say them out loud a bunch of times and believe yourself. Then say back, "I believe. I believe that's there. I believe myself." Because that self-trust is so fundamental. It's our capacity [00:23:00] to consent or not.
[00:23:01] Michelle Fischler: Yes, to trust what's happening inside of us, right? To pay attention to it.
[00:23:07] David Bedrick: Yeah. Especially to the no part.
[00:23:09] Michelle Fischler: Yes. '
[00:23:09] David Bedrick: Cause if this is happening while the person's having sex, that means there was already something beforehand.
[00:23:15] Michelle Fischler: Yes.
[00:23:16] David Bedrick: That's almost always true. So therefore, I'm like, build a relationship with that part of you. It will help over time.
[00:23:24] Michelle Fischler: I believe that you can't technique your way out of shame. [00:23:30] Does that hold true from where you sit?
[00:23:34] Michelle Fischler: And if it does, why doesn't technique work on it?
[00:23:43] David Bedrick: I'm gonna say something more radical than people might wanna hear. At a fundamental level, it's not psychological. It, it is psychology, but a fundamental level, it's a spiritual and personal love issue. What is it like to love oneself truly [00:24:00] as oneself?
[00:24:01] David Bedrick: That's a project, that's a life project that we don't finish when we are a- at the end of our lives, at least I don't think we do. That's a very profound question. That grows over time like anything else. It sprouts when it's given sunlight and water, the nourishment it needs. If the parts of you that are unloved just go in the dark, I'll just take that part of me that's insecure and move it away.
[00:24:24] David Bedrick: I'll take that part of me that doesn't perform, I'll, I'll medicate it. If I put all those into that [00:24:30] shadow, into that shadow bag and carry it, that's not a love project. That's a productivity, I wanna be able to perform project. But if you have a healing project, which is a self-love project, over time, that grows the way nature grows, slowly over time, but beautifully.
[00:24:48] David Bedrick: Doesn't mean you can't heal. Because every day that you do that, or a week or a month, beautiful things happen. Just doesn't mean you're a 100% healed human being. I don't know what that looks like.
[00:24:57] Michelle Fischler: Yeah. Neither do I.
[00:24:58] David Bedrick: Some kind of enlightened [00:25:00] being or something like that.
[00:25:01] Michelle Fischler: When it does start to shift for someone, what does that actually feel like?
[00:25:08] Michelle Fischler: Like, what's the first sign that it's working?
[00:25:13] David Bedrick: Yeah. I believe myself I believe you could say trust. Trust would be an okay word. I like the word belief. I-- When I'm angry, I believe I'm angry. When I have a headache, I believe I have a headache. When I don't like to do something, I believe I [00:25:30] still may do it, but I believe I really don't like it.
[00:25:32] David Bedrick: I'm not trying to change my mind when I feel tender. When I feel powerful, I don't try to change. When I feel smart, I think I'm smart. When I don't feel so smart, I don't feel so smart today. So not believing that I'm not smart as a person, but believing the momentary you, that's a profound thing. And then believing what you see.
[00:25:55] David Bedrick: Not that you're right, but starting with the belief. I keep on thinking since we've [00:26:00] been talking about I'm not really a Buddhist by theology, but I studied a little bit 'cause I used to meditate a lot in that form. I still meditate, but not in a traditional Buddhist form. But there was a story about the Buddha's enlightenment in a poem, and then the poem talks about him sitting under the Bodhi tree and that and all the Mara were coming and all the difficulties and what he went through.
[00:26:24] David Bedrick: And the final line of the poem, his enlightenment, according to this poet, was he finally believed his own [00:26:30] eyes Isn't that an incredible idea of I believe my own experience?
[00:26:36] Michelle Fischler: Mm. Thank you so much for being here, David, and for sharing your brilliance. And before we wrap up, is there anything that you're working on right now that you'd like people to know about, or anywhere you'd like them to find you?
[00:26:58] David Bedrick: Been focusing a lot more [00:27:00] on trauma directly. You know that over the years of teaching therapists and coaches, that's becoming more of a firm spot. I thought about it for a long time, but didn't feel like I can teach it 'cause I feel like I didn't know enough. For me to know enough means I have to work with hundreds and thousands of people over many years for me to think my ideas are not just good ideas.
[00:27:20] Michelle Fischler: Yeah.
[00:27:20] David Bedrick: They're good ideas- Yeah ... but this one doesn't work and this one doesn't work and this one doesn't work with this kind of person and it's socially stupid about this kind of person. So I need a lot of learning for me to teach, but I feel like [00:27:30] more about that, so I don't... This will probably come out later, but this Friday I'm teaching a small step about working with trauma for individuals that they can take without endangering themselves, re-traumatizing themselves.
[00:27:40] David Bedrick: And then in September, I'm probably gonna do a six or seven-week class. I'm trying to build a self-study class on trauma, but I'm imagining it to have very specific exercises and something that you can do 10 or 15 minutes in a day and then go on with your day. Like a tiny little piece. It's over time, but it's over [00:28:00] time anyway, but not like, can I heal this weekend?
[00:28:04] David Bedrick: Or heal this month.
[00:28:05] Michelle Fischler: Baby steps.
[00:28:06] David Bedrick: Like, can I take this little step, do it 10, 15 minutes, that same step 10, 15 minutes a day for a week or two and kind of go, "I think that little bit of me has changed"? So I'm, I'm making the courses. I always make sliding scales for the courses. This one I'm doing now you can get between $15 and $75.
[00:28:24] David Bedrick: People, I don't check with the person, they can just choose. But in more recently, in the last three months, I've [00:28:30] been writing on Substack quite a bit. And so that means rather than like a small post or a carousel on Instagram, if people want a little bit more, there's no cost to that. Those are more like three, four-page essays on some of the topics we've touched about, for instance, and that's a free resource.
[00:28:47] David Bedrick: So people can say, "I want to spend five, six minutes reading something, not like a 30-second post or a minute post. I want to read a little bit more, something a little bit more thoughtful." Of course, there's the books people can, can get, but the Substack is a free resource. Yeah. [00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Michelle Fischler: We will for sure be putting all of those links in, uh, the episode description.
[00:29:05] David Bedrick: Oh, thanks.
[00:29:05] Michelle Fischler: David, thank you so much for being here.
[00:29:10] David Bedrick: Thanks.
[00:29:15] Michelle Fischler: If you have a story that you wanna tell on Get Some, email me at michelle@getsome.ca. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at getsome_podcast. You'll get insights on sex and sexuality, dating tips, and [00:29:30] behind-the-scenes content between episodes. This show is produced by Katie Jensen at Vocal Fry Studios.
[00:29:36] Michelle Fischler: Thanks for listening. See you later.